Hoping someone can help me with this type of bread.

The best that I have tasted have come from Vietnamese Bakeries.. I assume
that the occupation by the French had a large influence on breadmaking
generally.

I use a breadmaker to make the dough and then bake the breadsticks or rolls
in the oven @ 220 C.

My problem is that I cannot get a thin crispy crust like the Vietnamese can.

Where am I going wrong ? Is there something wrong with the recipe that I am
using?

9 ml dried yeast
300 ml water
450 g flour
5ml salt
5 ml sugar
15 ml lard


Hoping someone can help
regards Ray (Victoria, Australia)

"ray" > wrote in message >...
> Hoping someone can help me with this type of bread.
>
> The best that I have tasted have come from Vietnamese Bakeries.. I assume
> that the occupation by the French had a large influence on breadmaking
> generally.
>
> I use a breadmaker to make the dough and then bake the breadsticks or rolls
> in the oven @ 220 C.
>
> My problem is that I cannot get a thin crispy crust like the Vietnamese can.
>
> Where am I going wrong ? Is there something wrong with the recipe that I am
> using?
>
> 9 ml dried yeast
> 300 ml water
> 450 g flour
> 5ml salt
> 5 ml sugar
> 15 ml lard
>
>
> Hoping someone can help
> regards Ray (Victoria, Australia)

Ray, As I have have stayed in Australia for some time.
I am also familiar with these Vietanmese style french breads and
indeed they have the crispy crust; some are thick and others are thin
( more similar to a crispy vienna bread and rolls) .
They usually use a breadmaking flour.So in your case as you live in
Victoria Australia look for white bakers flour commonly manufactured
by Allied mills, Weston milling etc.
As far as I know the recipe for such french bread adaptation ,its
like this :
I used the metric weights to be accurate.
Flour 500 grams
salt 8- 10 grams
instant dry yeast 10 grams
water 300-325 grams
lard/shortening 10-15 grams
sugar 10 grams
In commercial setting they usually add a bread improver usually from
5- 10 grams for that flour amount and if that is the case they usually
omit the sugar.
If they are using such additive the dough is mixed and then bulk
fermented for 15-20 minutes.Scaled into sizes and rounded. Let it rest
for 15 minutes and then then molded into sticks.
However if you do not have such additive( which BTW is sold in well
known shops there such as Coles, Bi-Lo and Safeway as bread improver)
you cans still do it anyway.
Prepare your ingredients and equipment follow the breadmaking
procedures.
As I am not breadmachine users I am just giving here the system done
in normal procedure with mixer( or you can even knead the dough by
hand for about 20 minutes).
With your home mixer The dough is just mixed properly(passsed window
pane test) , fermented well(an hour and 15 minutes) ,punched down and
folded and then let rise again( up to 45 minutes).
It is then scaled into units, rounded, give it a 10-15 minute rest
covered with damp cloth.
It is then molded into french sticks and proofed ( in commercial scale
in fluted french stick pans usually an hour) .It is slashed then bake
with lots of STEAM at least 230 degrees C for 15 minutes.The heat is
reduced when the bread starts to gain colour the steam in the oven is
vented out and baked until done( about 15 minutes more to dry it
out).This is the commercial oven setting.
The timing here is just indicative as done in institutional setting.
You may have to adjust it to fit your baking conditions and equipment.
Good Luck!
Roy

Hi Roy,

many thanks for your prompt reply to my query.

I have been using a strong Bakers flour recently or at least, since I
stopped using a prepared bread mix (Lauke) and I have been experimenting
with different recipes which still haven't even come close. (It's a good
thing that flour is really inexpensive here, as quite a few batches have
gone straight into the garbage tin.)

I certainly will follow your instructions to the letter, as the proving
times and using a "damp" cloth
are a great deal different to what I have have doing.

The use of steam sounds really promising...with my limited equipment, I
guess I'll have to see what sort of steam I can generate using a bowl of
water in the bottom of the electric oven ?.

Thanks agin for your advice,
regards Ray




"Roy Basan" > wrote in message
om...
> "ray" > wrote in message
>...
> > Hoping someone can help me with this type of bread.
> >
> > The best that I have tasted have come from Vietnamese Bakeries.. I
assume
> > that the occupation by the French had a large influence on breadmaking
> > generally.
> >
> > I use a breadmaker to make the dough and then bake the breadsticks or
rolls
> > in the oven @ 220 C.
> >
> > My problem is that I cannot get a thin crispy crust like the Vietnamese
can.
> >
> > Where am I going wrong ? Is there something wrong with the recipe that I
am
> > using?
> >
> > 9 ml dried yeast
> > 300 ml water
> > 450 g flour
> > 5ml salt
> > 5 ml sugar
> > 15 ml lard
> >
> >
> > Hoping someone can help
> > regards Ray (Victoria, Australia)
>
> Ray, As I have have stayed in Australia for some time.
> I am also familiar with these Vietanmese style french breads and
> indeed they have the crispy crust; some are thick and others are thin
> ( more similar to a crispy vienna bread and rolls) .
> They usually use a breadmaking flour.So in your case as you live in
> Victoria Australia look for white bakers flour commonly manufactured
> by Allied mills, Weston milling etc.
> As far as I know the recipe for such french bread adaptation ,its
> like this :
> I used the metric weights to be accurate.
> Flour 500 grams
> salt 8- 10 grams
> instant dry yeast 10 grams
> water 300-325 grams
> lard/shortening 10-15 grams
> sugar 10 grams
> In commercial setting they usually add a bread improver usually from
> 5- 10 grams for that flour amount and if that is the case they usually
> omit the sugar.
> If they are using such additive the dough is mixed and then bulk
> fermented for 15-20 minutes.Scaled into sizes and rounded. Let it rest
> for 15 minutes and then then molded into sticks.
> However if you do not have such additive( which BTW is sold in well
> known shops there such as Coles, Bi-Lo and Safeway as bread improver)
> you cans still do it anyway.
> Prepare your ingredients and equipment follow the breadmaking
> procedures.
> As I am not breadmachine users I am just giving here the system done
> in normal procedure with mixer( or you can even knead the dough by
> hand for about 20 minutes).
> With your home mixer The dough is just mixed properly(passsed window
> pane test) , fermented well(an hour and 15 minutes) ,punched down and
> folded and then let rise again( up to 45 minutes).
> It is then scaled into units, rounded, give it a 10-15 minute rest
> covered with damp cloth.
> It is then molded into french sticks and proofed ( in commercial scale
> in fluted french stick pans usually an hour) .It is slashed then bake
> with lots of STEAM at least 230 degrees C for 15 minutes.The heat is
> reduced when the bread starts to gain colour the steam in the oven is
> vented out and baked until done( about 15 minutes more to dry it
> out).This is the commercial oven setting.
> The timing here is just indicative as done in institutional setting.
> You may have to adjust it to fit your baking conditions and equipment.
> Good Luck!
> Roy

"ray" > wrote in message >...
> Hoping someone can help me with this type of bread.
>
> The best that I have tasted have come from Vietnamese Bakeries.. I assume
> that the occupation by the French had a large influence on breadmaking
> generally.
>
> I use a breadmaker to make the dough and then bake the breadsticks or rolls
> in the oven @ 220 C.
>
> My problem is that I cannot get a thin crispy crust like the Vietnamese can.
>
> Where am I going wrong ? Is there something wrong with the recipe that I am
> using?
>
> 9 ml dried yeast
> 300 ml water
> 450 g flour
> 5ml salt
> 5 ml sugar

Try brushing the breadsticks with ice water right before you put them
in the oven or you could use an egg wash (one egg yolk mixed with 1
tablespoon of water). That should make the crust crispy.
> 15 ml lard
>
>
> Hoping someone can help
> regards Ray (Victoria, Australia)

"ray" > wrote in message >...
> Hi Roy,
>
> many thanks for your prompt reply to my query.
>


>
> Thanks agin for your advice,
> regards Ray

>I have been using a strong Bakers flour recently or at least, since I
> stopped using a prepared bread mix (Lauke) and I have been experimenting
> with different recipes which still haven't even come close. (It's a good
> thing that flour is really inexpensive here, as quite a few batches have
> gone straight into the garbage tin.)

One further comment....before you start you baking trials.
If you had that wastage problem with your products you are probably
trying to duplicate the institutional type of Vietnamese style french
sticks.
I suggest that if in your initial trials are unsatisfactory you really
have to buy that bread improver I mentioned earlier.
From my experience and observations there (Down Under) the Vietnamese
bakers seldom bake their breads in the absence of a bread improver;
therefore if your goal is to simulate their style you will have use
that ingredient as well.
One typical characteristics of that particular rolls is its
lightness...I reckon the bread specific volume is around 8 cubic
centimeter per gram of bread.
If you do it the old fashioned way( no improvers and longer bulk
fermentation) you will only attain up to 6 cubic centimeters per gram.
There is no way you can duplicate that without the bread improver and
feel contented with the results.
With your manual way of dough making and improvised methods I suggest
that you gave an allowance for the fermentation ,proofing . The
vietnamese bakers are using a proofer which has a steam environment)
and the bakery conditions are warmer (than your home conditions) you
will have to adapt that conditions by placing a boiling pot of water
inside a cupboard or a big box where you place your molded loaves to
rise prior to baking so as to attain a humid conditons that will
enable the dough to proof vigorously.
Another reminder if you are using a bread improver with manual dough
methods. Use only half of the recommended amount:Say for the industry
if the australian bread improvers ( usually manufactured there by
Goodman Felder ,Bakels and Pinnacle) are dosed at 10-20 grams per
kilogram of flour ,use only half of that dosage in your system.That is
5-10 grams ,or in a half a kilo gram flour ( 2.5-5 grams).Therefore
whatever the dosage recommended in the packet you will have to use it
by half the amount.
Let the dough ferment for at least an hour before you cut and round
into desired sizes then let it rest for around 15-25 minutes before
you mold them.
If you do not have the fluted french stick pans just place then in
baking trays.
And let them rise fully . Prepare and Preheat your oven to 250 degrees
Celsius
and spray the inside of the oven( or mist) with water. Shut the oven
door, let the temperature rise,then open the door , place the proofed
doughs and spray again the inside with water( in mist) and close the
door immediately.
At that time baking the oven temperature will be in the 220-230
degree Celsius.

> I certainly will follow your instructions to the letter, as the proving
> times and using a "damp" cloth
> are a great deal different to what I have have doing.

This technique is to prevent excessive crust formation which will
hinder the proper moulding of dough and in order to have the seam
seal properly on the bottom without opening during the rising
process.
> The use of steam sounds really promising...with my limited equipment, I
> guess I'll have to see what sort of steam I can generate using a bowl of
> water in the bottom of the electric oven ?.
If you plan to use this technique of generating steam you may end up
with a leathery crust as there is no allowance for the steam
generation to be shut at the latter stage of baking.
You still can use it but halfway through the baking process remove the
bowl of water and let the bread bake in a dry atmosphere.

If your oven had a tendency to brown the crust faster you will have
to reduce the temperature say at 200 degrees C ( when you remove the
source of steam) and continue baking until the bread is done.
The bread should sound hollow when tapped .
Good Luck!
Roy

Many thanks Tashi_Aunt for your suggestions
regards
Ray



"Tashi_Aunt" > wrote in message
om...
> "ray" > wrote in message
>...
> Try brushing the breadsticks with ice water right before you put them
> in the oven or you could use an egg wash (one egg yolk mixed with 1
> tablespoon of water). That should make the crust crispy.

Thanks again Roy.
With the help and advice you have given to me , I
should turn out to be a master baker myself !!

I am sure that when I get back to my breadmaking, nobody will be able to
tell the difference between my breadsticks and those from a vietnamese
baker...

I have to have a break, as my freezer is chock full of bread rolls that are
quite edible even though they are not what I was aiming for..

I've got the bread improver now, so I'm hoping that my next effort will be
the one.

I'll keep you posted on the results..

regards Ray