I am specifically having a problem with spelt flour, but perhaps this is
something common to all flours, that someone can diagnose for me:

Almost any recipe that I have tried (except for shortbreads) have turned
into "lace cookies". A simple oatmeal cookie (see below) is a great
example. They simply melt, spread, merge tgether, and bake up as paper
thin, lacy, sugar puddles. Good, but *not* the intended plump, chewy
cookie I was trying for.

Anything specific I may be doing wrong? I made two substitutions, as noted
below. I prefer not using margarine, and unbleached white spelt has no
acid content to speak of, so I generally use mostly or all baking powder.

Dave

Aggression Cookies

1 cup light brown sugar
1 cup margarine (softened) (I used butter here)
1 cup flour
1 teaspoon baking soda (I used baking powder here)
2 cups quick rolled oats
Sugar (granulated)
Preheat oven to 350F. Combine first five ingredients, mixing well with
hands.

Roll into one-inch balls. Put on ungreased cookie sheet. Flatten each
ball with bottom of glass dipped in sugar. Bake for 10 minutes or
until light brown.

Try another recipe

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
ea.net...
>I am specifically having a problem with spelt flour, but perhaps this is
> something common to all flours, that someone can diagnose for me:
>
> Almost any recipe that I have tried (except for shortbreads) have turned
> into "lace cookies". A simple oatmeal cookie (see below) is a great
> example. They simply melt, spread, merge tgether, and bake up as paper
> thin, lacy, sugar puddles. Good, but *not* the intended plump, chewy
> cookie I was trying for.
>
> Anything specific I may be doing wrong? I made two substitutions, as noted
> below. I prefer not using margarine, and unbleached white spelt has no
> acid content to speak of, so I generally use mostly or all baking powder.
>
> Dave
>
> Aggression Cookies
>
> 1 cup light brown sugar
> 1 cup margarine (softened) (I used butter here)
> 1 cup flour
> 1 teaspoon baking soda (I used baking powder here)
> 2 cups quick rolled oats
> Sugar (granulated)
> Preheat oven to 350F. Combine first five ingredients, mixing well with
> hands.
>
> Roll into one-inch balls. Put on ungreased cookie sheet. Flatten each
> ball with bottom of glass dipped in sugar. Bake for 10 minutes or
> until light brown.
>

Try another recipe

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
ea.net...
>I am specifically having a problem with spelt flour, but perhaps this is
> something common to all flours, that someone can diagnose for me:
>
> Almost any recipe that I have tried (except for shortbreads) have turned
> into "lace cookies". A simple oatmeal cookie (see below) is a great
> example. They simply melt, spread, merge tgether, and bake up as paper
> thin, lacy, sugar puddles. Good, but *not* the intended plump, chewy
> cookie I was trying for.
>
> Anything specific I may be doing wrong? I made two substitutions, as noted
> below. I prefer not using margarine, and unbleached white spelt has no
> acid content to speak of, so I generally use mostly or all baking powder.
>
> Dave
>
> Aggression Cookies
>
> 1 cup light brown sugar
> 1 cup margarine (softened) (I used butter here)
> 1 cup flour
> 1 teaspoon baking soda (I used baking powder here)
> 2 cups quick rolled oats
> Sugar (granulated)
> Preheat oven to 350F. Combine first five ingredients, mixing well with
> hands.
>
> Roll into one-inch balls. Put on ungreased cookie sheet. Flatten each
> ball with bottom of glass dipped in sugar. Bake for 10 minutes or
> until light brown.
>

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:52:19 -0800
Dave Bell > wrote:

> I am specifically having a problem with spelt flour, but perhaps this is
> something common to all flours, that someone can diagnose for me:
>
> Almost any recipe that I have tried (except for shortbreads) have turned
> into "lace cookies". A simple oatmeal cookie (see below) is a great
> example. They simply melt, spread, merge tgether, and bake up as paper
> thin, lacy, sugar puddles. Good, but *not* the intended plump, chewy
> cookie I was trying for.
>
> Anything specific I may be doing wrong? I made two substitutions, as
> noted below. I prefer not using margarine, and unbleached white spelt has
> no acid content to speak of, so I generally use mostly or all baking
> powder.


I'm guessing that whoever came up with the recipe really meant
"low-calorie spread" when they said "margarine". Otherwise, there's a heck
of a lot of fat in these.

Butter is no less than 80% fat, by law. So is Margarine, but through
sneaky mind control tactics, the 60% fat 'spread' makers have fooled you
into believing that their project is margarine, when in fact the box says
no such thing.

Drop a couple tablespoons of butter, replace with, oh, lets say milk.

I also wouldn't be surprised if someone transcribed 'one stick' as 'one
cup'. But it's sorta telling that there's no liquid added to the recipe.

Not following you on the soda issue, so I won't address it. I've never
wanted to use spelt for anything so I've never investigated it's
properties.

At least, since you appear to be posting out of bayarea.net I'm guessing
you don't have an altitude issue to contend with.

"me" > wrote in message
. com...
> Try another recipe
>

I made a similar recipe a few months ago. They also spread into wafers.
The recipe has too little flour.

Dave Bell > wrote in message rea.net>...
> I am specifically having a problem with spelt flour, but perhaps this is
> something common to all flours, that someone can diagnose for me:
>
> Almost any recipe that I have tried (except for shortbreads) have turned
> into "lace cookies". A simple oatmeal cookie (see below) is a great
> example. They simply melt, spread, merge tgether, and bake up as paper
> thin, lacy, sugar puddles. Good, but *not* the intended plump, chewy
> cookie I was trying for.
>
> Anything specific I may be doing wrong? I made two substitutions, as noted
> below. I prefer not using margarine, and unbleached white spelt has no
> acid content to speak of, so I generally use mostly or all baking powder.
>
> Dave
>
> Aggression Cookies
>
> 1 cup light brown sugar
> 1 cup margarine (softened) (I used butter here)
> 1 cup flour
> 1 teaspoon baking soda (I used baking powder here)
> 2 cups quick rolled oats
> Sugar (granulated)
> Preheat oven to 350F. Combine first five ingredients, mixing well with
> hands.
>
> Roll into one-inch balls. Put on ungreased cookie sheet. Flatten each
> ball with bottom of glass dipped in sugar. Bake for 10 minutes or
> until light brown.

Look this cookie needs more structural ingredient. It has no eggs no
milk and have high sugar content and fat.
Ingredient wise:
It has nothing but bulking agent in the form of oatmeal and flour;
tenderizing agent in the form of fat and sugar.It is further softened
by the baking powder. Where is the structural material ?
It does not even have liquid to make the flour protein into a gluten
which will help bind the mixture.
You are just softening the short dough recipe by replacing the flour
with rolled oats that has limited binding ability.
Even if you mould it into balls when its baked it will just flow in
the cookie sheet.And You aggravate the result as you had to flatten
it,therefore you are promoting pan flow.
It will definitely be a 'lazy' cookie.
But will surely make you deligent 'cookie'<g> as you will spend more
effort removing the mess from the cookie sheeta and tossing it to he
garbage bin<g>.
But......
It does not live up to its name as aggression cookie. It is a pretty
timid cookie <g>.
But....wait..
I think the reason why its called aggression cookie is that you will
become angry with the results<g> You will become ****ed off that you
will just run to the nearest bakery /grocery shop and buy a cookie
instead<g>.

But do not lose hope ,if you still prefer this formula you can reduce
both the fat and sugar( by a teablespoon or two up to a quarter of a
cup),add a little bit of milk powder( 2 tsp) add enough egg to bind
the mixture but still attaining similar cookie dough texture that you
still can form into balls.
You can enhance the flavor by adding some spices like cinnanmon ,
cardamom etc,some flavoring like vanilla and grated orange or lemon
peel.You can blend in some chopped raisins and cherries.
But don't flatten it much ....
When I make a similar cookie dough recipe( but without an oatmeal
)but with pure pastry flour.The egg is my only binder ( just enough to
make it moldable and be able to be rolled into a cylinder .
The ratio of the flour, fat and sugar ratio is approximately
100/50/50 respectively and I add some baking powder( up to 1%) and
form the dough into a rope but cut it into short segments( 3/4 inch)
and place it upright on the cookie sheet. I just flatten it slightly,
place egg wash ahd bake.
BTW,.... the best leavening agent for this type of cookie is ammonium
bicarbonate, used in the same amount as baking powder but mixed with
the eggs and fat before you knead in the dry ingredients in ( flour
and sugar mixture).
You do not need to flatten it much, but just dent it with your
finger slightly and then it will come out at the right
thickness....when baked at least 350 degree F until tops are slightly
browned.
Roy

Dave Bell > wrote in message rea.net>...
> I am specifically having a problem with spelt flour, but perhaps this is
> something common to all flours, that someone can diagnose for me:
>
> Almost any recipe that I have tried (except for shortbreads) have turned
> into "lace cookies". A simple oatmeal cookie (see below) is a great
> example. They simply melt, spread, merge tgether, and bake up as paper
> thin, lacy, sugar puddles. Good, but *not* the intended plump, chewy
> cookie I was trying for.
>
> Anything specific I may be doing wrong? I made two substitutions, as noted
> below. I prefer not using margarine, and unbleached white spelt has no
> acid content to speak of, so I generally use mostly or all baking powder.
>
> Dave
>
> Aggression Cookies
>
> 1 cup light brown sugar
> 1 cup margarine (softened) (I used butter here)
> 1 cup flour
> 1 teaspoon baking soda (I used baking powder here)
> 2 cups quick rolled oats
> Sugar (granulated)
> Preheat oven to 350F. Combine first five ingredients, mixing well with
> hands.
>
> Roll into one-inch balls. Put on ungreased cookie sheet. Flatten each
> ball with bottom of glass dipped in sugar. Bake for 10 minutes or
> until light brown.

Look this cookie needs more structural ingredient. It has no eggs no
milk and have high sugar content and fat.
Ingredient wise:
It has nothing but bulking agent in the form of oatmeal and flour;
tenderizing agent in the form of fat and sugar.It is further softened
by the baking powder. Where is the structural material ?
It does not even have liquid to make the flour protein into a gluten
which will help bind the mixture.
You are just softening the short dough recipe by replacing the flour
with rolled oats that has limited binding ability.
Even if you mould it into balls when its baked it will just flow in
the cookie sheet.And You aggravate the result as you had to flatten
it,therefore you are promoting pan flow.
It will definitely be a 'lazy' cookie.
But will surely make you deligent 'cookie'<g> as you will spend more
effort removing the mess from the cookie sheeta and tossing it to he
garbage bin<g>.
But......
It does not live up to its name as aggression cookie. It is a pretty
timid cookie <g>.
But....wait..
I think the reason why its called aggression cookie is that you will
become angry with the results<g> You will become ****ed off that you
will just run to the nearest bakery /grocery shop and buy a cookie
instead<g>.

But do not lose hope ,if you still prefer this formula you can reduce
both the fat and sugar( by a teablespoon or two up to a quarter of a
cup),add a little bit of milk powder( 2 tsp) add enough egg to bind
the mixture but still attaining similar cookie dough texture that you
still can form into balls.
You can enhance the flavor by adding some spices like cinnanmon ,
cardamom etc,some flavoring like vanilla and grated orange or lemon
peel.You can blend in some chopped raisins and cherries.
But don't flatten it much ....
When I make a similar cookie dough recipe( but without an oatmeal
)but with pure pastry flour.The egg is my only binder ( just enough to
make it moldable and be able to be rolled into a cylinder .
The ratio of the flour, fat and sugar ratio is approximately
100/50/50 respectively and I add some baking powder( up to 1%) and
form the dough into a rope but cut it into short segments( 3/4 inch)
and place it upright on the cookie sheet. I just flatten it slightly,
place egg wash ahd bake.
BTW,.... the best leavening agent for this type of cookie is ammonium
bicarbonate, used in the same amount as baking powder but mixed with
the eggs and fat before you knead in the dry ingredients in ( flour
and sugar mixture).
You do not need to flatten it much, but just dent it with your
finger slightly and then it will come out at the right
thickness....when baked at least 350 degree F until tops are slightly
browned.
Roy

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
ea.net...
> I am specifically having a problem with spelt flour, but perhaps this is
> something common to all flours, that someone can diagnose for me:
>
> Almost any recipe that I have tried (except for shortbreads) have turned
> into "lace cookies". A simple oatmeal cookie (see below) is a great
> example. They simply melt, spread, merge tgether, and bake up as paper
> thin, lacy, sugar puddles. Good, but *not* the intended plump, chewy
> cookie I was trying for.
>
> Anything specific I may be doing wrong? I made two substitutions, as noted
> below. I prefer not using margarine, and unbleached white spelt has no
> acid content to speak of, so I generally use mostly or all baking powder.
>
> Dave
>
> Aggression Cookies
>
> 1 cup light brown sugar
> 1 cup margarine (softened) (I used butter here)
> 1 cup flour
> 1 teaspoon baking soda (I used baking powder here)
> 2 cups quick rolled oats
> Sugar (granulated)
> Preheat oven to 350F. Combine first five ingredients, mixing well with
> hands.
>
> Roll into one-inch balls. Put on ungreased cookie sheet. Flatten each
> ball with bottom of glass dipped in sugar. Bake for 10 minutes or
> until light brown.


Substitue half crisco for butter. All butter always makes cookies spread
too much (unless you want to diddle with flour quantities). Quick fix. Also
add another tablesoon or so of flour.
Mark

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
ea.net...
> I am specifically having a problem with spelt flour, but perhaps this is
> something common to all flours, that someone can diagnose for me:
>
> Almost any recipe that I have tried (except for shortbreads) have turned
> into "lace cookies". A simple oatmeal cookie (see below) is a great
> example. They simply melt, spread, merge tgether, and bake up as paper
> thin, lacy, sugar puddles. Good, but *not* the intended plump, chewy
> cookie I was trying for.
>
> Anything specific I may be doing wrong? I made two substitutions, as noted
> below. I prefer not using margarine, and unbleached white spelt has no
> acid content to speak of, so I generally use mostly or all baking powder.
>
> Dave
>
> Aggression Cookies
>
> 1 cup light brown sugar
> 1 cup margarine (softened) (I used butter here)
> 1 cup flour
> 1 teaspoon baking soda (I used baking powder here)
> 2 cups quick rolled oats
> Sugar (granulated)
> Preheat oven to 350F. Combine first five ingredients, mixing well with
> hands.
>
> Roll into one-inch balls. Put on ungreased cookie sheet. Flatten each
> ball with bottom of glass dipped in sugar. Bake for 10 minutes or
> until light brown.


Substitue half crisco for butter. All butter always makes cookies spread
too much (unless you want to diddle with flour quantities). Quick fix. Also
add another tablesoon or so of flour.
Mark

pheasant wrote:

> Substitue half crisco for butter. All butter always makes cookies spread
> too much (unless you want to diddle with flour quantities). Quick fix. Also
> add another tablesoon or so of flour.
> Mark


Thanks to Mark and all the others who have responded over the last
couple of days. I suspected half Crisco might help, but I think the real
problem, as has been pointed out, is the total lack of liquid in the
form of water! D'oh!! I suspect the same issue has plagued me in other
recipes, as well. I must be drawn to the pure butter and sugar side of
baking; I'll have to learn to leave that for fillings! Roy's detaile
reply was very helpful, with more of a "formula" to let me work to...

Dave

pheasant wrote:

> Substitue half crisco for butter. All butter always makes cookies spread
> too much (unless you want to diddle with flour quantities). Quick fix. Also
> add another tablesoon or so of flour.
> Mark


Thanks to Mark and all the others who have responded over the last
couple of days. I suspected half Crisco might help, but I think the real
problem, as has been pointed out, is the total lack of liquid in the
form of water! D'oh!! I suspect the same issue has plagued me in other
recipes, as well. I must be drawn to the pure butter and sugar side of
baking; I'll have to learn to leave that for fillings! Roy's detaile
reply was very helpful, with more of a "formula" to let me work to...

Dave

pheasant wrote:

> Substitue half crisco for butter. All butter always makes cookies spread
> too much (unless you want to diddle with flour quantities). Quick fix. Also
> add another tablesoon or so of flour.
> Mark


Thanks to Mark and all the others who have responded over the last
couple of days. I suspected half Crisco might help, but I think the real
problem, as has been pointed out, is the total lack of liquid in the
form of water! D'oh!! I suspect the same issue has plagued me in other
recipes, as well. I must be drawn to the pure butter and sugar side of
baking; I'll have to learn to leave that for fillings! Roy's detaile
reply was very helpful, with more of a "formula" to let me work to...

Dave

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
. com...

Thanks to Mark and all the others who have responded over the last
> couple of days. I suspected half Crisco might help, but I think the real
> problem, as has been pointed out, is the total lack of liquid in the form
> of water!

Milk is for AFTER they come out of the oven.

Water and cookies YUCK!!!

No liquids are needed. Basic cookie ingredients are butter/shortening,
flour, salt, and sugar.

Every recipe varies, even pie crusts use varying ingredients, (my wife's has
vinegar and eggs) but your recipe looks sound as is.

Betcha can't guess who can't be in the kitchen when the other is baking in
our house. Oh well; after 23 years we have to have somethings we can't
agree on.

Just my 0.02.
Mark

--
Four boxes protect our freedom: the soap box, the
ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:25:21 -0600
"pheasant" > wrote:

>
>
>
> "Dave Bell" > wrote in message
> . com...
>
> Thanks to Mark and all the others who have responded over the last
> > couple of days. I suspected half Crisco might help, but I think the
> > real problem, as has been pointed out, is the total lack of liquid in
> > the form of water!
>
> Milk is for AFTER they come out of the oven.
>
> Water and cookies YUCK!!!


I wasn't really suggesting the addition of milk or water, as such.

I suggested that an irresponsible or ignorant person had created the
recipe with unclear or misleading terms and that the OP's interpretation of
it had 30% more oil and 50% less liquid than the original product. The
liquid would probably just cook off in the oven.

When all you're really looking at is flour, sugar, and fat, I think it's
roughly the same thing to say there's too much fat as to say there's too
little flour.


> No liquids are needed. Basic cookie ingredients are butter/shortening,
> flour, salt, and sugar.
>
> Every recipe varies, even pie crusts use varying ingredients, (my wife's
> has vinegar and eggs) but your recipe looks sound as is.


Lots of cookie recipes have eggs in them, and there's some amount of
water in eggs.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, pheasant wrote:

> No liquids are needed. Basic cookie ingredients are butter/shortening,
> flour, salt, and sugar.

Well, I was thinking "egg", not water...

> Every recipe varies, even pie crusts use varying ingredients, (my wife's has
> vinegar and eggs) but your recipe looks sound as is.

Then, why do they melt and turn to lace? There's precious little water in
butter, and less in shortening. If not making a shortbread (with a lot
more flour relative to the butter), what is there to bind it?

As suggested, I will try again, with less butter/more flour, but this was
really just a single example of several recipes that I've had the same
problem with. I *do* get a good shortbread cookie from the spelt flour.
They spread only a small amount in the heat. Perhaps I should go back to
that as a basis, and morph it to the oatmeal cookie...

Thanks,

Dave

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:55:41 -0800
Dave Bell > wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, pheasant wrote:
>
> > No liquids are needed. Basic cookie ingredients are butter/shortening,
> > flour, salt, and sugar.
>
> Well, I was thinking "egg", not water...
>
> > Every recipe varies, even pie crusts use varying ingredients, (my
> > wife's has vinegar and eggs) but your recipe looks sound as is.
>
> Then, why do they melt and turn to lace? There's precious little water in
> butter, and less in shortening.


Butter is typically 15%-18% water, sometimes as little as 8 or 9%, but
you'd know about it because you paid extra for it. Margarine is up to 20%.
Shortening is 0%. Low-calorie margarine spread is 40% or more water.

Dave Bell > wrote in message rea.net>...
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, pheasant wrote:
>
> > No liquids are needed. Basic cookie ingredients are butter/shortening,
> > flour, salt, and sugar.
>
> Well, I was thinking "egg", not water...
>
> > Every recipe varies, even pie crusts use varying ingredients, (my wife's has
> > vinegar and eggs) but your recipe looks sound as is.
>
> Then, why do they melt and turn to lace? There's precious little water in
> butter, and less in shortening. If not making a shortbread (with a lot
> more flour relative to the butter), what is there to bind it?
>
> As suggested, I will try again, with less butter/more flour, but this was
> really just a single example of several recipes that I've had the same
> problem with. I *do* get a good shortbread cookie from the spelt flour.
> They spread only a small amount in the heat. Perhaps I should go back to
> that as a basis, and morph it to the oatmeal cookie...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave

Cookies are baked products that had minimal moisture content among the
other baked goods. It is more related to the pie crust which has
little moisture as well.
The principle in this products is that you just need just sufficient
water not much to form a dough or much more like a batter but just
simply a paste.

But a pastry or a cookie with similar texture like shortbread. You
still can find under the microscope discrete particles of flour
granules in combination with some swollen gluten aggregated with fat
particles and sugar crystals.
It is a fact that sugar tends to bind moisture as well due to
hygrosocopicity but the nature of such interactions will favor the
flour protein to bind the limited water first, and due to the finer
particles size if compared to the normal fine granulated sugar;
while the flour wedge protein is finer by two or more significant
figures.But mixing can also influence the results if you cream the fat
and sugar and add it to the flour blend you will likely get the same
lacy cookie than if you mix the ingredients simply. Just be sure that
the eggs and fat are well blended to allow some emulsification.
Therefore the mixture is loose if compared to the dough and the
batter. To attain some degree of cohesiveness with out becoming too
wet more fat is needed but there is a limit. As too much fat will
prevent the minimal flour protein in soft / pastry/ cookie flour to
hydrate properly.
The same also with sugar. Fat ( in form of butter or margarine)will
tend to coat the sugar particles distributing whatever moisture in it
on the sugar surface. Therefore inspite of the bigger particles size
if compared to the flour wedge protein its quantity will inhibit the
flour from absorbing the minimal moisture. Then there will be much
less water left for the flour.
This will be aggravated if there is a ballast component that does not
have a gluten in it like oatmeal. It can also adsorb the moisture on
the jagged surface of the oatmeal preventing it to be absorbed by the
flour.
Hence if you mix a blend of non gluten ingredients such as oatmeal
with flour its best to use higher protein flour so that there is more
chance that the increased gluten content that the mixture will surely
result in good moisture binding and will minimize ‘pan flow or
laciness'
Being a loose mixture if the amount of fats is high as well as the
sugar, during the baking the fat having the lower melting point will
tend to flow like a river dragging the pebbles of ‘sugar ‘along
without an obstruction( supposing the is no water in the recipe).
Hence the flour particles will be carried down also resulting in lacy
appearance.
If the cookie formulator always think in narrow way ( or is so
inexperienced)that a cookie should be like a short bread and adapt
that principle to cookies he will never get anywhere with his recipes.
He should have to create the obstruction by means of the flour
protein which serves like gnarled roots of trees and other vegetation
along the river banks. Hence the need for moisture in the form of milk
/ egg or water.
If you ask then how about short bread it has no water in it. But it
has little sugar in there as well as compared to the normal cookie
recipe.The minimal amount of moisture in the butter is partially
responsible for some binding.
A short bread is firmer and than a cookie dough and the fat is
slightly less as well as much less sugar quantity in it.
A short bread can be pressed and cut with little difference in
appearance when baked if compared to a normal cookie.
You are right the presence of lots of sugar and butter and minimal
moisture plus the coarseness of the oatmeal will impede the formation
of the desirable cookie structure.hence your cookie will flow out and
like lace cookies.
Therefore you need drastic measures, that is the use of egg which
contains moisture but most important the albumen portion has a good
binding ability and it will interacts with the flour protein making a
good mesh or structure.for that type of cookie.The lecithin in the egg
will also interact forming a ternary phase fat /moisture/protein
strengthening the structure.
You are on the right track with your experiments, try to obtain a
balance between cohesiveness( just enough moisture binding) and
flowability( due to enough fat and sugar but not much) and your cookie
will come out all right.
Setting aside other factors such as baking and mixing.
The principle of cookie flow is also affected by the flour protein,
cookies made with stronger flour ( all purpose instead of pastry) will
have better symmetry specially if you use it non gluten ingredients
like oatmeal. If you use 100 percent flour then its okay to use pastry
as the all purpose flour tends to distort the cookie symmetry and
affect the eating quality as well.
Roy

Dave Bell > wrote in message rea.net>...
> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, pheasant wrote:
>
> > No liquids are needed. Basic cookie ingredients are butter/shortening,
> > flour, salt, and sugar.
>
> Well, I was thinking "egg", not water...
>
> > Every recipe varies, even pie crusts use varying ingredients, (my wife's has
> > vinegar and eggs) but your recipe looks sound as is.
>
> Then, why do they melt and turn to lace? There's precious little water in
> butter, and less in shortening. If not making a shortbread (with a lot
> more flour relative to the butter), what is there to bind it?
>
> As suggested, I will try again, with less butter/more flour, but this was
> really just a single example of several recipes that I've had the same
> problem with. I *do* get a good shortbread cookie from the spelt flour.
> They spread only a small amount in the heat. Perhaps I should go back to
> that as a basis, and morph it to the oatmeal cookie...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave

Cookies are baked products that had minimal moisture content among the
other baked goods. It is more related to the pie crust which has
little moisture as well.
The principle in this products is that you just need just sufficient
water not much to form a dough or much more like a batter but just
simply a paste.

But a pastry or a cookie with similar texture like shortbread. You
still can find under the microscope discrete particles of flour
granules in combination with some swollen gluten aggregated with fat
particles and sugar crystals.
It is a fact that sugar tends to bind moisture as well due to
hygrosocopicity but the nature of such interactions will favor the
flour protein to bind the limited water first, and due to the finer
particles size if compared to the normal fine granulated sugar;
while the flour wedge protein is finer by two or more significant
figures.But mixing can also influence the results if you cream the fat
and sugar and add it to the flour blend you will likely get the same
lacy cookie than if you mix the ingredients simply. Just be sure that
the eggs and fat are well blended to allow some emulsification.
Therefore the mixture is loose if compared to the dough and the
batter. To attain some degree of cohesiveness with out becoming too
wet more fat is needed but there is a limit. As too much fat will
prevent the minimal flour protein in soft / pastry/ cookie flour to
hydrate properly.
The same also with sugar. Fat ( in form of butter or margarine)will
tend to coat the sugar particles distributing whatever moisture in it
on the sugar surface. Therefore inspite of the bigger particles size
if compared to the flour wedge protein its quantity will inhibit the
flour from absorbing the minimal moisture. Then there will be much
less water left for the flour.
This will be aggravated if there is a ballast component that does not
have a gluten in it like oatmeal. It can also adsorb the moisture on
the jagged surface of the oatmeal preventing it to be absorbed by the
flour.
Hence if you mix a blend of non gluten ingredients such as oatmeal
with flour its best to use higher protein flour so that there is more
chance that the increased gluten content that the mixture will surely
result in good moisture binding and will minimize ‘pan flow or
laciness'
Being a loose mixture if the amount of fats is high as well as the
sugar, during the baking the fat having the lower melting point will
tend to flow like a river dragging the pebbles of ‘sugar ‘along
without an obstruction( supposing the is no water in the recipe).
Hence the flour particles will be carried down also resulting in lacy
appearance.
If the cookie formulator always think in narrow way ( or is so
inexperienced)that a cookie should be like a short bread and adapt
that principle to cookies he will never get anywhere with his recipes.
He should have to create the obstruction by means of the flour
protein which serves like gnarled roots of trees and other vegetation
along the river banks. Hence the need for moisture in the form of milk
/ egg or water.
If you ask then how about short bread it has no water in it. But it
has little sugar in there as well as compared to the normal cookie
recipe.The minimal amount of moisture in the butter is partially
responsible for some binding.
A short bread is firmer and than a cookie dough and the fat is
slightly less as well as much less sugar quantity in it.
A short bread can be pressed and cut with little difference in
appearance when baked if compared to a normal cookie.
You are right the presence of lots of sugar and butter and minimal
moisture plus the coarseness of the oatmeal will impede the formation
of the desirable cookie structure.hence your cookie will flow out and
like lace cookies.
Therefore you need drastic measures, that is the use of egg which
contains moisture but most important the albumen portion has a good
binding ability and it will interacts with the flour protein making a
good mesh or structure.for that type of cookie.The lecithin in the egg
will also interact forming a ternary phase fat /moisture/protein
strengthening the structure.
You are on the right track with your experiments, try to obtain a
balance between cohesiveness( just enough moisture binding) and
flowability( due to enough fat and sugar but not much) and your cookie
will come out all right.
Setting aside other factors such as baking and mixing.
The principle of cookie flow is also affected by the flour protein,
cookies made with stronger flour ( all purpose instead of pastry) will
have better symmetry specially if you use it non gluten ingredients
like oatmeal. If you use 100 percent flour then its okay to use pastry
as the all purpose flour tends to distort the cookie symmetry and
affect the eating quality as well.
Roy

thanks for the yummy recipe

Listed below are my recipe-exchange groups

Feel free to join a few or ALL!
I love sharing good recipes..

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/4seasonsrecipes/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thepastryshop
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/asiancuisine/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/allchocolate/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/recipeplace/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canadiancooks/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/recipeslostandfound/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LaCucina-Italiano/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toprated-recipes/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a-family-kitchen/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mediterranean/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freebierecipes/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/healthycooks/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christmas-cheer/
Looking forward to Meeting you soon!
"Roy Basan" > wrote in message
om...
> Dave Bell > wrote in message
> rea.net>...
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, pheasant wrote:
>>
>> > No liquids are needed. Basic cookie ingredients are butter/shortening,
>> > flour, salt, and sugar.
>>
>> Well, I was thinking "egg", not water...
>>
>> > Every recipe varies, even pie crusts use varying ingredients, (my
>> > wife's has
>> > vinegar and eggs) but your recipe looks sound as is.
>>
>> Then, why do they melt and turn to lace? There's precious little water in
>> butter, and less in shortening. If not making a shortbread (with a lot
>> more flour relative to the butter), what is there to bind it?
>>
>> As suggested, I will try again, with less butter/more flour, but this was
>> really just a single example of several recipes that I've had the same
>> problem with. I *do* get a good shortbread cookie from the spelt flour.
>> They spread only a small amount in the heat. Perhaps I should go back to
>> that as a basis, and morph it to the oatmeal cookie...
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dave
>
> Cookies are baked products that had minimal moisture content among the
> other baked goods. It is more related to the pie crust which has
> little moisture as well.
> The principle in this products is that you just need just sufficient
> water not much to form a dough or much more like a batter but just
> simply a paste.
>
> But a pastry or a cookie with similar texture like shortbread. You
> still can find under the microscope discrete particles of flour
> granules in combination with some swollen gluten aggregated with fat
> particles and sugar crystals.
> It is a fact that sugar tends to bind moisture as well due to
> hygrosocopicity but the nature of such interactions will favor the
> flour protein to bind the limited water first, and due to the finer
> particles size if compared to the normal fine granulated sugar;
> while the flour wedge protein is finer by two or more significant
> figures.But mixing can also influence the results if you cream the fat
> and sugar and add it to the flour blend you will likely get the same
> lacy cookie than if you mix the ingredients simply. Just be sure that
> the eggs and fat are well blended to allow some emulsification.
> Therefore the mixture is loose if compared to the dough and the
> batter. To attain some degree of cohesiveness with out becoming too
> wet more fat is needed but there is a limit. As too much fat will
> prevent the minimal flour protein in soft / pastry/ cookie flour to
> hydrate properly.
> The same also with sugar. Fat ( in form of butter or margarine)will
> tend to coat the sugar particles distributing whatever moisture in it
> on the sugar surface. Therefore inspite of the bigger particles size
> if compared to the flour wedge protein its quantity will inhibit the
> flour from absorbing the minimal moisture. Then there will be much
> less water left for the flour.
> This will be aggravated if there is a ballast component that does not
> have a gluten in it like oatmeal. It can also adsorb the moisture on
> the jagged surface of the oatmeal preventing it to be absorbed by the
> flour.
> Hence if you mix a blend of non gluten ingredients such as oatmeal
> with flour its best to use higher protein flour so that there is more
> chance that the increased gluten content that the mixture will surely
> result in good moisture binding and will minimize 'pan flow or
> laciness'
> Being a loose mixture if the amount of fats is high as well as the
> sugar, during the baking the fat having the lower melting point will
> tend to flow like a river dragging the pebbles of 'sugar 'along
> without an obstruction( supposing the is no water in the recipe).
> Hence the flour particles will be carried down also resulting in lacy
> appearance.
> If the cookie formulator always think in narrow way ( or is so
> inexperienced)that a cookie should be like a short bread and adapt
> that principle to cookies he will never get anywhere with his recipes.
> He should have to create the obstruction by means of the flour
> protein which serves like gnarled roots of trees and other vegetation
> along the river banks. Hence the need for moisture in the form of milk
> / egg or water.
> If you ask then how about short bread it has no water in it. But it
> has little sugar in there as well as compared to the normal cookie
> recipe.The minimal amount of moisture in the butter is partially
> responsible for some binding.
> A short bread is firmer and than a cookie dough and the fat is
> slightly less as well as much less sugar quantity in it.
> A short bread can be pressed and cut with little difference in
> appearance when baked if compared to a normal cookie.
> You are right the presence of lots of sugar and butter and minimal
> moisture plus the coarseness of the oatmeal will impede the formation
> of the desirable cookie structure.hence your cookie will flow out and
> like lace cookies.
> Therefore you need drastic measures, that is the use of egg which
> contains moisture but most important the albumen portion has a good
> binding ability and it will interacts with the flour protein making a
> good mesh or structure.for that type of cookie.The lecithin in the egg
> will also interact forming a ternary phase fat /moisture/protein
> strengthening the structure.
> You are on the right track with your experiments, try to obtain a
> balance between cohesiveness( just enough moisture binding) and
> flowability( due to enough fat and sugar but not much) and your cookie
> will come out all right.
> Setting aside other factors such as baking and mixing.
> The principle of cookie flow is also affected by the flour protein,
> cookies made with stronger flour ( all purpose instead of pastry) will
> have better symmetry specially if you use it non gluten ingredients
> like oatmeal. If you use 100 percent flour then its okay to use pastry
> as the all purpose flour tends to distort the cookie symmetry and
> affect the eating quality as well.
> Roy

thanks for the yummy recipe

Listed below are my recipe-exchange groups

Feel free to join a few or ALL!
I love sharing good recipes..

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/4seasonsrecipes/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thepastryshop
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/asiancuisine/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/allchocolate/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/recipeplace/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canadiancooks/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/recipeslostandfound/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LaCucina-Italiano/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toprated-recipes/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a-family-kitchen/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mediterranean/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freebierecipes/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/healthycooks/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christmas-cheer/
Looking forward to Meeting you soon!
"Roy Basan" > wrote in message
om...
> Dave Bell > wrote in message
> rea.net>...
>> On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, pheasant wrote:
>>
>> > No liquids are needed. Basic cookie ingredients are butter/shortening,
>> > flour, salt, and sugar.
>>
>> Well, I was thinking "egg", not water...
>>
>> > Every recipe varies, even pie crusts use varying ingredients, (my
>> > wife's has
>> > vinegar and eggs) but your recipe looks sound as is.
>>
>> Then, why do they melt and turn to lace? There's precious little water in
>> butter, and less in shortening. If not making a shortbread (with a lot
>> more flour relative to the butter), what is there to bind it?
>>
>> As suggested, I will try again, with less butter/more flour, but this was
>> really just a single example of several recipes that I've had the same
>> problem with. I *do* get a good shortbread cookie from the spelt flour.
>> They spread only a small amount in the heat. Perhaps I should go back to
>> that as a basis, and morph it to the oatmeal cookie...
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dave
>
> Cookies are baked products that had minimal moisture content among the
> other baked goods. It is more related to the pie crust which has
> little moisture as well.
> The principle in this products is that you just need just sufficient
> water not much to form a dough or much more like a batter but just
> simply a paste.
>
> But a pastry or a cookie with similar texture like shortbread. You
> still can find under the microscope discrete particles of flour
> granules in combination with some swollen gluten aggregated with fat
> particles and sugar crystals.
> It is a fact that sugar tends to bind moisture as well due to
> hygrosocopicity but the nature of such interactions will favor the
> flour protein to bind the limited water first, and due to the finer
> particles size if compared to the normal fine granulated sugar;
> while the flour wedge protein is finer by two or more significant
> figures.But mixing can also influence the results if you cream the fat
> and sugar and add it to the flour blend you will likely get the same
> lacy cookie than if you mix the ingredients simply. Just be sure that
> the eggs and fat are well blended to allow some emulsification.
> Therefore the mixture is loose if compared to the dough and the
> batter. To attain some degree of cohesiveness with out becoming too
> wet more fat is needed but there is a limit. As too much fat will
> prevent the minimal flour protein in soft / pastry/ cookie flour to
> hydrate properly.
> The same also with sugar. Fat ( in form of butter or margarine)will
> tend to coat the sugar particles distributing whatever moisture in it
> on the sugar surface. Therefore inspite of the bigger particles size
> if compared to the flour wedge protein its quantity will inhibit the
> flour from absorbing the minimal moisture. Then there will be much
> less water left for the flour.
> This will be aggravated if there is a ballast component that does not
> have a gluten in it like oatmeal. It can also adsorb the moisture on
> the jagged surface of the oatmeal preventing it to be absorbed by the
> flour.
> Hence if you mix a blend of non gluten ingredients such as oatmeal
> with flour its best to use higher protein flour so that there is more
> chance that the increased gluten content that the mixture will surely
> result in good moisture binding and will minimize 'pan flow or
> laciness'
> Being a loose mixture if the amount of fats is high as well as the
> sugar, during the baking the fat having the lower melting point will
> tend to flow like a river dragging the pebbles of 'sugar 'along
> without an obstruction( supposing the is no water in the recipe).
> Hence the flour particles will be carried down also resulting in lacy
> appearance.
> If the cookie formulator always think in narrow way ( or is so
> inexperienced)that a cookie should be like a short bread and adapt
> that principle to cookies he will never get anywhere with his recipes.
> He should have to create the obstruction by means of the flour
> protein which serves like gnarled roots of trees and other vegetation
> along the river banks. Hence the need for moisture in the form of milk
> / egg or water.
> If you ask then how about short bread it has no water in it. But it
> has little sugar in there as well as compared to the normal cookie
> recipe.The minimal amount of moisture in the butter is partially
> responsible for some binding.
> A short bread is firmer and than a cookie dough and the fat is
> slightly less as well as much less sugar quantity in it.
> A short bread can be pressed and cut with little difference in
> appearance when baked if compared to a normal cookie.
> You are right the presence of lots of sugar and butter and minimal
> moisture plus the coarseness of the oatmeal will impede the formation
> of the desirable cookie structure.hence your cookie will flow out and
> like lace cookies.
> Therefore you need drastic measures, that is the use of egg which
> contains moisture but most important the albumen portion has a good
> binding ability and it will interacts with the flour protein making a
> good mesh or structure.for that type of cookie.The lecithin in the egg
> will also interact forming a ternary phase fat /moisture/protein
> strengthening the structure.
> You are on the right track with your experiments, try to obtain a
> balance between cohesiveness( just enough moisture binding) and
> flowability( due to enough fat and sugar but not much) and your cookie
> will come out all right.
> Setting aside other factors such as baking and mixing.
> The principle of cookie flow is also affected by the flour protein,
> cookies made with stronger flour ( all purpose instead of pastry) will
> have better symmetry specially if you use it non gluten ingredients
> like oatmeal. If you use 100 percent flour then its okay to use pastry
> as the all purpose flour tends to distort the cookie symmetry and
> affect the eating quality as well.
> Roy