Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
be a goddess. So what went wrong?

The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
making.

I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.

So two questions:

1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
trying cream of tartar....

2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
flour?

Many thanks, experts.
--
Jane Lumley

"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
...
> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> be a goddess. So what went wrong?
>
> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> making.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.
>
> So two questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> trying cream of tartar....
>
> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> flour?
>
> Many thanks, experts.


I haven't seen a genoise recipe that uses chemical leavening. Why not just
stick to the classic genoise recipe/technique and forget about reinventing
the wheel? If the cake was even close to a classic genoise, it shouldn't
have been flat. The egg foam, if properly beaten with the dry ingredients
correctly folded into, should have been enough to have leavened the cake.

"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
...
> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> be a goddess. So what went wrong?
>
> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> making.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.
>
> So two questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> trying cream of tartar....
>
> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> flour?
>
> Many thanks, experts.


I haven't seen a genoise recipe that uses chemical leavening. Why not just
stick to the classic genoise recipe/technique and forget about reinventing
the wheel? If the cake was even close to a classic genoise, it shouldn't
have been flat. The egg foam, if properly beaten with the dry ingredients
correctly folded into, should have been enough to have leavened the cake.

"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
...
> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> be a goddess. So what went wrong?
>
> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> making.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.
>
> So two questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> trying cream of tartar....
>
> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> flour?
>
> Many thanks, experts.


I haven't seen a genoise recipe that uses chemical leavening. Why not just
stick to the classic genoise recipe/technique and forget about reinventing
the wheel? If the cake was even close to a classic genoise, it shouldn't
have been flat. The egg foam, if properly beaten with the dry ingredients
correctly folded into, should have been enough to have leavened the cake.

In article >, Vox Humana
> writes
>
>"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
...
>> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
>> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
>> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
>> be a goddess. So what went wrong?
>>
>> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
>> making.
>>
>> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
>> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
>> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
>> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.
>>
>> So two questions:
>>
>> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
>> trying cream of tartar....
>>
>> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
>> flour?
>>
>> Many thanks, experts.
>
>
>I haven't seen a genoise recipe that uses chemical leavening. Why not just
>stick to the classic genoise recipe/technique and forget about reinventing
>the wheel? If the cake was even close to a classic genoise, it shouldn't
>have been flat. The egg foam, if properly beaten with the dry ingredients
>correctly folded into, should have been enough to have leavened the cake.
>
>
Evidently I explained badly. Of course I don't mean that one would
normally use chemical leaven in a genoise, but presumably the
unbleached flour nonetheless had an impact, and I wondered if by adding
some form of acid I could compensate for it - as with Dutched cocoa?
--
Jane Lumley

In article >, Vox Humana
> writes
>
>"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
...
>> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
>> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
>> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
>> be a goddess. So what went wrong?
>>
>> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
>> making.
>>
>> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
>> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
>> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
>> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.
>>
>> So two questions:
>>
>> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
>> trying cream of tartar....
>>
>> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
>> flour?
>>
>> Many thanks, experts.
>
>
>I haven't seen a genoise recipe that uses chemical leavening. Why not just
>stick to the classic genoise recipe/technique and forget about reinventing
>the wheel? If the cake was even close to a classic genoise, it shouldn't
>have been flat. The egg foam, if properly beaten with the dry ingredients
>correctly folded into, should have been enough to have leavened the cake.
>
>
Evidently I explained badly. Of course I don't mean that one would
normally use chemical leaven in a genoise, but presumably the
unbleached flour nonetheless had an impact, and I wondered if by adding
some form of acid I could compensate for it - as with Dutched cocoa?
--
Jane Lumley

I'd say try somebody else's recipe.
http://www.joyofbaking.com/ChocolateGenoise.html
http://www.foodtv.com/food/recipes/r..._20403,00.html
http://www.createacakeshop.com/chocogenoise.htm
http://cake.allrecipes.com/az/Genoise.asp
http://www.chefdecuisine.com/baking/cakes/GENOISE.asp
jmho,
Peggy

"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
...
> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> be a goddess. So what went wrong?
>
> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> making.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.
>
> So two questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> trying cream of tartar....
>
> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> flour?
>
> Many thanks, experts.
> --
> Jane Lumley

I'd say try somebody else's recipe.
http://www.joyofbaking.com/ChocolateGenoise.html
http://www.foodtv.com/food/recipes/r..._20403,00.html
http://www.createacakeshop.com/chocogenoise.htm
http://cake.allrecipes.com/az/Genoise.asp
http://www.chefdecuisine.com/baking/cakes/GENOISE.asp
jmho,
Peggy

"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
...
> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> be a goddess. So what went wrong?
>
> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> making.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.
>
> So two questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> trying cream of tartar....
>
> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> flour?
>
> Many thanks, experts.
> --
> Jane Lumley

Yes I am with Vox here.
Silly question, you did fold in your dry ingredients?????????? if not
that can kill it. qahtan

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> > THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> > sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> > be a goddess. So what went wrong?
> >
> > The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> > making.
> >
> > I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> > therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> > make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> > leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.
> >
> > So two questions:
> >
> > 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> > trying cream of tartar....
> >
> > 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> > flour?
> >
> > Many thanks, experts.
>
>
> I haven't seen a genoise recipe that uses chemical leavening. Why not
just
> stick to the classic genoise recipe/technique and forget about reinventing
> the wheel? If the cake was even close to a classic genoise, it shouldn't
> have been flat. The egg foam, if properly beaten with the dry
ingredients
> correctly folded into, should have been enough to have leavened the cake.
>
>

Yes I am with Vox here.
Silly question, you did fold in your dry ingredients?????????? if not
that can kill it. qahtan

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> > THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> > sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> > be a goddess. So what went wrong?
> >
> > The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> > making.
> >
> > I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> > therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> > make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> > leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.
> >
> > So two questions:
> >
> > 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> > trying cream of tartar....
> >
> > 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> > flour?
> >
> > Many thanks, experts.
>
>
> I haven't seen a genoise recipe that uses chemical leavening. Why not
just
> stick to the classic genoise recipe/technique and forget about reinventing
> the wheel? If the cake was even close to a classic genoise, it shouldn't
> have been flat. The egg foam, if properly beaten with the dry
ingredients
> correctly folded into, should have been enough to have leavened the cake.
>
>

Jane Lumley > wrote in message >...
> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> be a goddess. So what went wrong?

> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> making.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.

Indeed flour is a big issue in cake consistency....And if Flo Braker
was an american she is well used to chlorinated cake flour usage in
cakes ; and that particular treatment do provide robustness to cake
performance.
But wait, I am aware of the stringent food laws in UK therefore flour
chlorination was banned several years ago.
It had been my experience in the baking laboratory that comparing
performance of cakes with unchlorinated but heat treated English cake
flour is not as good as chlorinated US cake flour which is really
superior.
My remedy for such UK unchlorinated but heat treated cake flour was to
use less liquid in cake recipe and it will come out all right.
BTW, the acidic characteristics of good ( US) cake flour is not
responsible for its interaction with the baking soda; the primary
effect of the acidification was to modify the gelatinzation
characteristics of the flour starch as well as interact with the the
cake flour gluten( mellowing it down and making it extensible) thereby
permitting the cake batter to expand more while also strengthening
the structure.
> So two questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> trying cream of tartar....
Lack of chlorine meaning the flour pH is more than 5.5 is not modified
by adding acidulant such as cream of tarter. The effect of chlorine is
intimate and it includes the starch and the flour protein. Meanwhile
cream of tarter only interacts with the soda present in the recipe and
if there is an excess yes it can whiten the cake crumb as well but
although both are acidic, potassium acid tartrate ( cream of tarter)
and chlorine dioxide( chlorine treatment in the flour mill) their
effect( I reiterate) are not eauivalent.
In order to simulate the chlorine treatment ( as I mentioned earlier
)the flour is slightly moistened and heat treated for hours in a
special 'oven' before its packed.This particular step is precise and
cannot be easily simulated at home but only in the institutional
setting such as found in the flour mill.
> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> flour?
Self rising flour throughout the world are pretty similar in terms of
leavening effect.The only differ in the type of flour and the
leavening acids they use in the mix.
Another way to stablize batter is to use trivalent salts such as
aluminum phosphates or sulfates; unfortunately that alum based baking
powder is not sold in UK.I also had some succes with calcium chloride
salt but its a precise formulation that you cannot do at home, and
some sensitive tasters say that the CaCl2 provides some slight
aftertaste , although its harmless.
The easiest remedy for you is not to follow the recipe word for word
but to reduce the amount of liquids as I am pretty aware the low
absorption characteristics of UK flour if compared to American flour.
I had the same problem several years back trying to formulate an
american style supermoist cake in prepared mix company near that area
using a UK made cake flour which was a disaster if I followed the all
american way of making it. What I did I reformulated the cake to so
that the amount of liquids added is slightly less than what I did with
American type cake flour but modified also the cake preparation step
to compensate for it.
Roy

Jane Lumley > wrote in message >...
> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> be a goddess. So what went wrong?

> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> making.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.

Indeed flour is a big issue in cake consistency....And if Flo Braker
was an american she is well used to chlorinated cake flour usage in
cakes ; and that particular treatment do provide robustness to cake
performance.
But wait, I am aware of the stringent food laws in UK therefore flour
chlorination was banned several years ago.
It had been my experience in the baking laboratory that comparing
performance of cakes with unchlorinated but heat treated English cake
flour is not as good as chlorinated US cake flour which is really
superior.
My remedy for such UK unchlorinated but heat treated cake flour was to
use less liquid in cake recipe and it will come out all right.
BTW, the acidic characteristics of good ( US) cake flour is not
responsible for its interaction with the baking soda; the primary
effect of the acidification was to modify the gelatinzation
characteristics of the flour starch as well as interact with the the
cake flour gluten( mellowing it down and making it extensible) thereby
permitting the cake batter to expand more while also strengthening
the structure.
> So two questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> trying cream of tartar....
Lack of chlorine meaning the flour pH is more than 5.5 is not modified
by adding acidulant such as cream of tarter. The effect of chlorine is
intimate and it includes the starch and the flour protein. Meanwhile
cream of tarter only interacts with the soda present in the recipe and
if there is an excess yes it can whiten the cake crumb as well but
although both are acidic, potassium acid tartrate ( cream of tarter)
and chlorine dioxide( chlorine treatment in the flour mill) their
effect( I reiterate) are not eauivalent.
In order to simulate the chlorine treatment ( as I mentioned earlier
)the flour is slightly moistened and heat treated for hours in a
special 'oven' before its packed.This particular step is precise and
cannot be easily simulated at home but only in the institutional
setting such as found in the flour mill.
> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> flour?
Self rising flour throughout the world are pretty similar in terms of
leavening effect.The only differ in the type of flour and the
leavening acids they use in the mix.
Another way to stablize batter is to use trivalent salts such as
aluminum phosphates or sulfates; unfortunately that alum based baking
powder is not sold in UK.I also had some succes with calcium chloride
salt but its a precise formulation that you cannot do at home, and
some sensitive tasters say that the CaCl2 provides some slight
aftertaste , although its harmless.
The easiest remedy for you is not to follow the recipe word for word
but to reduce the amount of liquids as I am pretty aware the low
absorption characteristics of UK flour if compared to American flour.
I had the same problem several years back trying to formulate an
american style supermoist cake in prepared mix company near that area
using a UK made cake flour which was a disaster if I followed the all
american way of making it. What I did I reformulated the cake to so
that the amount of liquids added is slightly less than what I did with
American type cake flour but modified also the cake preparation step
to compensate for it.
Roy

Jane Lumley > wrote in message >...
> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> be a goddess. So what went wrong?

> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> making.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.

Indeed flour is a big issue in cake consistency....And if Flo Braker
was an american she is well used to chlorinated cake flour usage in
cakes ; and that particular treatment do provide robustness to cake
performance.
But wait, I am aware of the stringent food laws in UK therefore flour
chlorination was banned several years ago.
It had been my experience in the baking laboratory that comparing
performance of cakes with unchlorinated but heat treated English cake
flour is not as good as chlorinated US cake flour which is really
superior.
My remedy for such UK unchlorinated but heat treated cake flour was to
use less liquid in cake recipe and it will come out all right.
BTW, the acidic characteristics of good ( US) cake flour is not
responsible for its interaction with the baking soda; the primary
effect of the acidification was to modify the gelatinzation
characteristics of the flour starch as well as interact with the the
cake flour gluten( mellowing it down and making it extensible) thereby
permitting the cake batter to expand more while also strengthening
the structure.
> So two questions:
>
> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> trying cream of tartar....
Lack of chlorine meaning the flour pH is more than 5.5 is not modified
by adding acidulant such as cream of tarter. The effect of chlorine is
intimate and it includes the starch and the flour protein. Meanwhile
cream of tarter only interacts with the soda present in the recipe and
if there is an excess yes it can whiten the cake crumb as well but
although both are acidic, potassium acid tartrate ( cream of tarter)
and chlorine dioxide( chlorine treatment in the flour mill) their
effect( I reiterate) are not eauivalent.
In order to simulate the chlorine treatment ( as I mentioned earlier
)the flour is slightly moistened and heat treated for hours in a
special 'oven' before its packed.This particular step is precise and
cannot be easily simulated at home but only in the institutional
setting such as found in the flour mill.
> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> flour?
Self rising flour throughout the world are pretty similar in terms of
leavening effect.The only differ in the type of flour and the
leavening acids they use in the mix.
Another way to stablize batter is to use trivalent salts such as
aluminum phosphates or sulfates; unfortunately that alum based baking
powder is not sold in UK.I also had some succes with calcium chloride
salt but its a precise formulation that you cannot do at home, and
some sensitive tasters say that the CaCl2 provides some slight
aftertaste , although its harmless.
The easiest remedy for you is not to follow the recipe word for word
but to reduce the amount of liquids as I am pretty aware the low
absorption characteristics of UK flour if compared to American flour.
I had the same problem several years back trying to formulate an
american style supermoist cake in prepared mix company near that area
using a UK made cake flour which was a disaster if I followed the all
american way of making it. What I did I reformulated the cake to so
that the amount of liquids added is slightly less than what I did with
American type cake flour but modified also the cake preparation step
to compensate for it.
Roy

In article >, Roy Basan
> writes
>Indeed flour is a big issue in cake consistency....And if Flo Braker
>was an american she is well used to chlorinated cake flour usage in
>cakes ; and that particular treatment do provide robustness to cake
>performance.
>But wait, I am aware of the stringent food laws in UK therefore flour
>chlorination was banned several years ago.

Yup. Thus the problem.
>It had been my experience in the baking laboratory that comparing
>performance of cakes with unchlorinated but heat treated English cake
>flour is not as good as chlorinated US cake flour which is really
>superior.
>My remedy for such UK unchlorinated but heat treated cake flour was to
>use less liquid in cake recipe and it will come out all right.

I'll try it today! Huge thanks.
>BTW, the acidic characteristics of good ( US) cake flour is not
>responsible for its interaction with the baking soda; the primary
>effect of the acidification was to modify the gelatinzation
>characteristics of the flour starch as well as interact with the the
>cake flour gluten( mellowing it down and making it extensible) thereby
>permitting the cake batter to expand more while also strengthening
>the structure.

At last, someone intelligent enough to understand the question. Thank
you!

And to all those eager to say 'silly', please read carefully next time.
I'm not usually flamey, but there's something very annoying abotu being
told you're a fool by people who have no idea what you're talking about.
--
Jane Lumley

In article >, Roy Basan
> writes
>Indeed flour is a big issue in cake consistency....And if Flo Braker
>was an american she is well used to chlorinated cake flour usage in
>cakes ; and that particular treatment do provide robustness to cake
>performance.
>But wait, I am aware of the stringent food laws in UK therefore flour
>chlorination was banned several years ago.

Yup. Thus the problem.
>It had been my experience in the baking laboratory that comparing
>performance of cakes with unchlorinated but heat treated English cake
>flour is not as good as chlorinated US cake flour which is really
>superior.
>My remedy for such UK unchlorinated but heat treated cake flour was to
>use less liquid in cake recipe and it will come out all right.

I'll try it today! Huge thanks.
>BTW, the acidic characteristics of good ( US) cake flour is not
>responsible for its interaction with the baking soda; the primary
>effect of the acidification was to modify the gelatinzation
>characteristics of the flour starch as well as interact with the the
>cake flour gluten( mellowing it down and making it extensible) thereby
>permitting the cake batter to expand more while also strengthening
>the structure.

At last, someone intelligent enough to understand the question. Thank
you!

And to all those eager to say 'silly', please read carefully next time.
I'm not usually flamey, but there's something very annoying abotu being
told you're a fool by people who have no idea what you're talking about.
--
Jane Lumley

"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Vox Humana
> > writes
> >
> >"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Everyone says Flo Braker is more reliable than Big Ben and yet I had
> >> THREE failures in a row with her genoise recipe. Now, boasty though it
> >> sounds, I'm a pretty good and experienced baker, and she is supposed to
> >> be a goddess. So what went wrong?
> >>
> >> The cakes were FLAT. And I MEAN FLAT. They were trifle sponge in the
> >> making.
> >>
> >> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> >> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> >> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> >> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.
> >>
> >> So two questions:
> >>
> >> 1. Does anyone know how to compensate for the lack of chlorine? I'm
> >> trying cream of tartar....
> >>
> >> 2. Does anyone know the ratio of chemical leaven in UK self-raising
> >> flour?
> >>
> >> Many thanks, experts.
> >
> >
> >I haven't seen a genoise recipe that uses chemical leavening. Why not
just
> >stick to the classic genoise recipe/technique and forget about
reinventing
> >the wheel? If the cake was even close to a classic genoise, it shouldn't
> >have been flat. The egg foam, if properly beaten with the dry
ingredients
> >correctly folded into, should have been enough to have leavened the cake.
> >
> >
> Evidently I explained badly. Of course I don't mean that one would
> normally use chemical leaven in a genoise, but presumably the
> unbleached flour nonetheless had an impact, and I wondered if by adding
> some form of acid I could compensate for it - as with Dutched cocoa?
> --
> Jane Lumley

As usual, Roy has the ultimate answer to your question. Still, I would get
another recipe or contact the author and ask for help. Sometimes cookbooks
have printing errors. You might be doing everyone a favor by pointing out
that you had a problem. On review, the author might find an error or
omission and could make the necessary corrections in subsequent printings.

"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Roy Basan
> > writes
> >Indeed flour is a big issue in cake consistency....And if Flo Braker
> >was an american she is well used to chlorinated cake flour usage in
> >cakes ; and that particular treatment do provide robustness to cake
> >performance.
> >But wait, I am aware of the stringent food laws in UK therefore flour
> >chlorination was banned several years ago.
>
> Yup. Thus the problem.
> >It had been my experience in the baking laboratory that comparing
> >performance of cakes with unchlorinated but heat treated English cake
> >flour is not as good as chlorinated US cake flour which is really
> >superior.
> >My remedy for such UK unchlorinated but heat treated cake flour was to
> >use less liquid in cake recipe and it will come out all right.
>
> I'll try it today! Huge thanks.
> >BTW, the acidic characteristics of good ( US) cake flour is not
> >responsible for its interaction with the baking soda; the primary
> >effect of the acidification was to modify the gelatinzation
> >characteristics of the flour starch as well as interact with the the
> >cake flour gluten( mellowing it down and making it extensible) thereby
> >permitting the cake batter to expand more while also strengthening
> >the structure.
>
> At last, someone intelligent enough to understand the question. Thank
> you!
>
> And to all those eager to say 'silly', please read carefully next time.
> I'm not usually flamey, but there's something very annoying abotu being
> told you're a fool by people who have no idea what you're talking about.
> --
> Jane Lumley

Jane, what Roy says is true and probably makes a big difference if you are a
commercial baking plant producing thousands of cakes. I would be quite
surprised if you added a bit of acid or reduce the liquid a bit and your
genoise suddenly came out right. For those of us who suggested getting a
better recipe, I think it was the best advice. Unless you are food
scientist who can accurately evaluate and modify ingredients, it just isn't
worth wasting time and ingredients guessing how much of this or that it
would take to modify ingredients to influence the outcome, particularly if
you are facing a complete failure. And, before you get flamey next time,
read carefully because I don't recall anyone suggesting that you were a
fool. Of course, now that might be a question in the minds of some.

"Jane Lumley" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Roy Basan
> > writes
> >Indeed flour is a big issue in cake consistency....And if Flo Braker
> >was an american she is well used to chlorinated cake flour usage in
> >cakes ; and that particular treatment do provide robustness to cake
> >performance.
> >But wait, I am aware of the stringent food laws in UK therefore flour
> >chlorination was banned several years ago.
>
> Yup. Thus the problem.
> >It had been my experience in the baking laboratory that comparing
> >performance of cakes with unchlorinated but heat treated English cake
> >flour is not as good as chlorinated US cake flour which is really
> >superior.
> >My remedy for such UK unchlorinated but heat treated cake flour was to
> >use less liquid in cake recipe and it will come out all right.
>
> I'll try it today! Huge thanks.
> >BTW, the acidic characteristics of good ( US) cake flour is not
> >responsible for its interaction with the baking soda; the primary
> >effect of the acidification was to modify the gelatinzation
> >characteristics of the flour starch as well as interact with the the
> >cake flour gluten( mellowing it down and making it extensible) thereby
> >permitting the cake batter to expand more while also strengthening
> >the structure.
>
> At last, someone intelligent enough to understand the question. Thank
> you!
>
> And to all those eager to say 'silly', please read carefully next time.
> I'm not usually flamey, but there's something very annoying abotu being
> told you're a fool by people who have no idea what you're talking about.
> --
> Jane Lumley

Jane, what Roy says is true and probably makes a big difference if you are a
commercial baking plant producing thousands of cakes. I would be quite
surprised if you added a bit of acid or reduce the liquid a bit and your
genoise suddenly came out right. For those of us who suggested getting a
better recipe, I think it was the best advice. Unless you are food
scientist who can accurately evaluate and modify ingredients, it just isn't
worth wasting time and ingredients guessing how much of this or that it
would take to modify ingredients to influence the outcome, particularly if
you are facing a complete failure. And, before you get flamey next time,
read carefully because I don't recall anyone suggesting that you were a
fool. Of course, now that might be a question in the minds of some.

Jane Lumley > wrote in message >...

>
> At last, someone intelligent enough to understand the question. Thank
> you!
>
> And to all those eager to say 'silly', please read carefully next time.
> I'm not usually flamey, but there's something very annoying abotu being
> told you're a fool by people who have no idea what you're talking about.

In fairness to others , I think they also provided satisfactory
information that is related to the particular cake faults although
maybe not the one that you expect. In fact many professional bakers if
asked with that problem( of yours) will say the same thing that it has
something to do with the recipe and operational side of the cake
baking process.
But as you had enough experience and you correctly narrowed down to
the cause which is the flour as you stated here.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.

Just lately I was wondering if you are using self rising flour instead
of cake flour. I have to remind you that most of the self- rising
flour are not bleached or even chlorinated. Most of them are just
plain flour with added baking powder and salt suited for making simple
cakes, scones, flapjacks,some crumpets varieties and other English
goodies. I had also used that Self rising flour in making genoise type
cakes but in the low ratio category.
Therefore if Flo Brakers recipe( I am sorry I am not familiar with her
recipes or book) is a high ratio type cake and( I presume) you are
replacing it with UK self-rising flour I am doubtful of its success.
Unless you convert that supposed high ratio genoise recipe of that
particular author to a lower ratio formulation.(i.e., the primary
indicator is the ratio of sugar to the flour which is not allowed to
exceed the flour weight which due to the lower sugar level needs the
liquids to be reduced as well.) If you prefer to follow the
particular formula in that book….. then…..
I suggest that you better procure a high ratio cake flour and you
will be ensured that your product comes out fine.But again these
British counterparts are not absolutely equivalent to the higher
quality of the American high ratio cake flour known in such familar
brands as Softasilk and Swans Down.....
I reiterate if I had to make a really high absorption cakes with UK
cake flours( really high liquids I still had to reduce it slightly for
optimum cake performance).
Be reminded that in Britain there are two types of high ratio cake
flour; one has lower protein level like the normal cake flour used
for most high ratio cakes,( known in UK as angel cake , gold cake and
other fine celebration cakes).
Then there is another one the special high protein cake flour, that
has a protein content( similar to even higher than bread flour, air
classified in the mill and also heat treated) suited for heavier
cakes such as fruit cakes with extreme amount of fruits , nuts etc. I
remember the manufacturers for such both good cake making flours in UK
were Allied mills, Spillers Dalgety, Arkady Craigmillar etc.I just
cannot remember their proprietary product names and some of these
flour milling companies keep on changing their product names…
regularly for marketing reasons..
Anyway I wish you luck in your baking trials….
Roy

Jane Lumley > wrote in message >...

>
> At last, someone intelligent enough to understand the question. Thank
> you!
>
> And to all those eager to say 'silly', please read carefully next time.
> I'm not usually flamey, but there's something very annoying abotu being
> told you're a fool by people who have no idea what you're talking about.

In fairness to others , I think they also provided satisfactory
information that is related to the particular cake faults although
maybe not the one that you expect. In fact many professional bakers if
asked with that problem( of yours) will say the same thing that it has
something to do with the recipe and operational side of the cake
baking process.
But as you had enough experience and you correctly narrowed down to
the cause which is the flour as you stated here.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.

Just lately I was wondering if you are using self rising flour instead
of cake flour. I have to remind you that most of the self- rising
flour are not bleached or even chlorinated. Most of them are just
plain flour with added baking powder and salt suited for making simple
cakes, scones, flapjacks,some crumpets varieties and other English
goodies. I had also used that Self rising flour in making genoise type
cakes but in the low ratio category.
Therefore if Flo Brakers recipe( I am sorry I am not familiar with her
recipes or book) is a high ratio type cake and( I presume) you are
replacing it with UK self-rising flour I am doubtful of its success.
Unless you convert that supposed high ratio genoise recipe of that
particular author to a lower ratio formulation.(i.e., the primary
indicator is the ratio of sugar to the flour which is not allowed to
exceed the flour weight which due to the lower sugar level needs the
liquids to be reduced as well.) If you prefer to follow the
particular formula in that book….. then…..
I suggest that you better procure a high ratio cake flour and you
will be ensured that your product comes out fine.But again these
British counterparts are not absolutely equivalent to the higher
quality of the American high ratio cake flour known in such familar
brands as Softasilk and Swans Down.....
I reiterate if I had to make a really high absorption cakes with UK
cake flours( really high liquids I still had to reduce it slightly for
optimum cake performance).
Be reminded that in Britain there are two types of high ratio cake
flour; one has lower protein level like the normal cake flour used
for most high ratio cakes,( known in UK as angel cake , gold cake and
other fine celebration cakes).
Then there is another one the special high protein cake flour, that
has a protein content( similar to even higher than bread flour, air
classified in the mill and also heat treated) suited for heavier
cakes such as fruit cakes with extreme amount of fruits , nuts etc. I
remember the manufacturers for such both good cake making flours in UK
were Allied mills, Spillers Dalgety, Arkady Craigmillar etc.I just
cannot remember their proprietary product names and some of these
flour milling companies keep on changing their product names…
regularly for marketing reasons..
Anyway I wish you luck in your baking trials….
Roy

Jane Lumley > wrote in message >...

>
> At last, someone intelligent enough to understand the question. Thank
> you!
>
> And to all those eager to say 'silly', please read carefully next time.
> I'm not usually flamey, but there's something very annoying abotu being
> told you're a fool by people who have no idea what you're talking about.

In fairness to others , I think they also provided satisfactory
information that is related to the particular cake faults although
maybe not the one that you expect. In fact many professional bakers if
asked with that problem( of yours) will say the same thing that it has
something to do with the recipe and operational side of the cake
baking process.
But as you had enough experience and you correctly narrowed down to
the cause which is the flour as you stated here.
>
> I know now what did it. It was the UK flour. Which is unbleached, and
> therefore lacks that bit of acid you need to interact with the soda to
> make the cake fly. Self-raising flour is bleached, but then the
> leavening quantities are fixed by the makers and can't be adjusted.

Just lately I was wondering if you are using self rising flour instead
of cake flour. I have to remind you that most of the self- rising
flour are not bleached or even chlorinated. Most of them are just
plain flour with added baking powder and salt suited for making simple
cakes, scones, flapjacks,some crumpets varieties and other English
goodies. I had also used that Self rising flour in making genoise type
cakes but in the low ratio category.
Therefore if Flo Brakers recipe( I am sorry I am not familiar with her
recipes or book) is a high ratio type cake and( I presume) you are
replacing it with UK self-rising flour I am doubtful of its success.
Unless you convert that supposed high ratio genoise recipe of that
particular author to a lower ratio formulation.(i.e., the primary
indicator is the ratio of sugar to the flour which is not allowed to
exceed the flour weight which due to the lower sugar level needs the
liquids to be reduced as well.) If you prefer to follow the
particular formula in that book….. then…..
I suggest that you better procure a high ratio cake flour and you
will be ensured that your product comes out fine.But again these
British counterparts are not absolutely equivalent to the higher
quality of the American high ratio cake flour known in such familar
brands as Softasilk and Swans Down.....
I reiterate if I had to make a really high absorption cakes with UK
cake flours( really high liquids I still had to reduce it slightly for
optimum cake performance).
Be reminded that in Britain there are two types of high ratio cake
flour; one has lower protein level like the normal cake flour used
for most high ratio cakes,( known in UK as angel cake , gold cake and
other fine celebration cakes).
Then there is another one the special high protein cake flour, that
has a protein content( similar to even higher than bread flour, air
classified in the mill and also heat treated) suited for heavier
cakes such as fruit cakes with extreme amount of fruits , nuts etc. I
remember the manufacturers for such both good cake making flours in UK
were Allied mills, Spillers Dalgety, Arkady Craigmillar etc.I just
cannot remember their proprietary product names and some of these
flour milling companies keep on changing their product names…
regularly for marketing reasons..
Anyway I wish you luck in your baking trials….
Roy