Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

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  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2004, 02:55 PM
Kenneth
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 22:00:54 -0600, "Brian Macke"
wrote:

I think it's improper to say that warming up the dough is "accelerating"
the proofing process. Proofing dough is done at the ideal temperature for
yeast growth (near 32C/90F and 80-85% humidity).


Well, we certainly disagree...

When you say above that "Proofing dough is done at the ideal
temperature for yeast growth" you are confusing "ideal" with "most
rapid."

Proofing can, in fact, be "done" at any temperature that allows the
yeasts to multiply. Dough will proof (slowly) in the refrigerator.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2004, 02:57 PM
Kenneth
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 19:38:38 -0700, "Mike Avery"
wrote:

Controlling the temperature of the dough as well as the temperature and
humidity of the proofing area are big factors in this.


Hi Mike,

On that we agree, but please note how frequently in this thread folks
talk about ways of "warming" the dough. In fact, I don't recall too
many comments about accurately measuring the temperature of the dough
or the surrounding environment.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2004, 04:28 PM
The Cook
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.

Kenneth wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 19:38:38 -0700, "Mike Avery"
wrote:

Controlling the temperature of the dough as well as the temperature and
humidity of the proofing area are big factors in this.


Hi Mike,

On that we agree, but please note how frequently in this thread folks
talk about ways of "warming" the dough. In fact, I don't recall too
many comments about accurately measuring the temperature of the dough
or the surrounding environment.

All the best,


Decided to check the loaf I started this morning. Room temp is 69.1.
Internal temp of the dough is 72.4. It doubled in 2 hours just
sitting on the counter in a plastic container with one of the "shower
cap" covers on it.


--
Susan N.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.
  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2004, 05:00 PM
Vox Humana
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.


"Dee Randall" deedoveyatshenteldotnet wrote in message
...

"Dee Randall" deedoveyatshenteldotnet wrote in message
...

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I

had
a
chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you

do
it
at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there

some
good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?

I don't find that I need a proofer unless I want to speed up the

process.
You get better bread with a slow rise in a cool place. You can rig a
proofing box in a number of ways. 1) put a 11x14 pan of hot water in

your
oven, place the dough in a bowl, and close the door. 2) bring a 4 cup
measure of water to a boil in your microwave, put the dough in a bowl,

place
in the oven, close the door. 3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water

on
a
tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it. 4) put a jug of

hot
water in a picnic cooler with the dough and cover.

You get the idea. You just need a way to trap warm, moist air. Many

newer
ovens have a "proof" setting. That turns the convection oven on at a
temperature of 100F. They usually recommend that you add a pan of

boiling
water for moisture.


snip
3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water on a
tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it.

I have a large plastic storage bin to cover my dough to raise. I'm not

sure
what you mean by putting the dough with a pan of hot water on a tray .."

I
can't visualize this, can you be a little more specific for me?

thanks
Dee


OK, by jove, I think I've got it. I knew there was a solution there for

me
as I have a large plastic bread cover-er.
1) Onto a baking tray, set your container of dough; and beside it on the
tray, set your container of hot water.
2) Cover the tray with a plastic-bread-cover which covers the whole tray
and sits flush on the table so the heat/moisture will not escape.

Thanks,
Dee


Exactly!


  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2004, 09:39 PM
Brian Macke
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:55:41 -0500, Kenneth wrote:

Well, we certainly disagree...


Quite. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it may be distracting for the
original poster.

When you say above that "Proofing dough is done at the ideal temperature
for yeast growth" you are confusing "ideal" with "most rapid."


This is semantical, but remember that I'm speaking about the growth of
yeast. The best way (the ideal way) to grow yeast would be an environment
at the "ideal temperature" for such growth. Rapid yeast growth does not
affect its quality. There is nothing lost intrinsic to the yeast to have
it grow faster. By extension, nothing is lost to have it grow at a slower
temperature. This is why retarding yeast growth doesn't lead to an
inferior product - just takes longer.

Proofing can, in fact, be "done" at any temperature that allows the yeasts
to multiply. Dough will proof (slowly) in the refrigerator.


I do not disagree with this. My mere point is that you don't gain much by
doing this. Other than wait time. If that's your goal (making rolls the
night before to give you time to rest overnight) then by all means you can
proof in a refridgerator. They even make retarder-proofers these days that
keep the humidity in the 70-80% range. Just do all the steps to makeup,
put them in the retarder-proofer, set the timer, and come back to
perfectly proofed doughs.

--
-Brian James Macke
"In order to get that which you wish for, you must first get that which
builds it." -- Unknown



  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2004, 09:54 PM
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.


"Brian Macke" wrote in message
news
This is semantical, but remember that I'm speaking about the growth of
yeast. The best way (the ideal way) to grow yeast would be an environment
at the "ideal temperature" for such growth. Rapid yeast growth does not
affect its quality. There is nothing lost intrinsic to the yeast to have
it grow faster. By extension, nothing is lost to have it grow at a slower
temperature. This is why retarding yeast growth doesn't lead to an
inferior product - just takes longer.
-Brian James Macke
"In order to get that which you wish for, you must first get that
which
builds it." -- Unknown

I dunno. More rapid yeast growth is generally accomplished by warmer
temperatures which if overdone can lead to some really nasty tasting and
smelling bread. On the other hand, I am able to taste the difference
between a retarded proof and a normal proof--there is increased 'sweetness'
and nuttiness to the lean breads. There is no doubt that there is little to
be gained in a retail or commercial baking setting by retarding proof as it
is unlikely that you will be able to price up a loaf to reflect the lost
production time. But in the home setting, a retarded proof produces a
better flavored lean loaf.
Janet


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2004, 10:02 PM
H. W. Hans Kuntze
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.

Brian Macke wrote:

[...]

Rapid yeast growth does not affect its quality.[....]

Maybe not the yeast's, but for me, quality includes the flavor and=20
texture of the baked (or fermented/brewed for that matter) goods.

Of course, it also has to do with more thorough hydration of the dough,=20
but a slowly fermented dough just produces a better tasting product for=20
that matter, IMHO.

--=20
Grue$$e.

C=3D=A6-)=A7 H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
" Strive for excellence in your life & reject being a doormat to others. =
Serve God. "
http://www.cmcchef.com , chef[AT]cmcchef.com
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/=20

  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2004, 10:03 PM
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.


"The Cook" wrote in message
...

Decided to check the loaf I started this morning. Room temp is 69.1.
Internal temp of the dough is 72.4. It doubled in 2 hours just
sitting on the counter in a plastic container with one of the "shower
cap" covers on it.


--
Susan N.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary

and those who do not.

You make an excellent point. The dough itself produces heat as it ferments.
If you were to put the bowl or formed loaves in a poofed up plastic bag or
box or similar, you would be very surprised at the amount of heat and
moisture that is generated. Once one learns the techniques of making bread
correctly and stops watching the clock, one finds that bread proceeds
rapidly on its own without additional warmth. A lot of bread is slow to
rise just because it has too much flour or is not kneaded enough.
Janet


  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2004, 10:12 PM
Vox Humana
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.


"Janet Bostwick" wrote in message
...

"Brian Macke" wrote in message
news
This is semantical, but remember that I'm speaking about the growth of
yeast. The best way (the ideal way) to grow yeast would be an

environment
at the "ideal temperature" for such growth. Rapid yeast growth does not
affect its quality. There is nothing lost intrinsic to the yeast to have
it grow faster. By extension, nothing is lost to have it grow at a

slower
temperature. This is why retarding yeast growth doesn't lead to an
inferior product - just takes longer.
-Brian James Macke
"In order to get that which you wish for, you must first get that

which
builds it." -- Unknown

I dunno. More rapid yeast growth is generally accomplished by warmer
temperatures which if overdone can lead to some really nasty tasting and
smelling bread. On the other hand, I am able to taste the difference
between a retarded proof and a normal proof--there is increased

'sweetness'
and nuttiness to the lean breads. There is no doubt that there is little

to
be gained in a retail or commercial baking setting by retarding proof as

it
is unlikely that you will be able to price up a loaf to reflect the lost
production time. But in the home setting, a retarded proof produces a
better flavored lean loaf.
Janet


What seems to be missing from this discussion is the role of bacteria.
There are always two types of fermentation occurring in the dough: fungal
and bacterial fermentation. Yeast (fungus) reproduces well in a narrow
range of temperature (as someone already noted) producing mostly CO2 and
alcohol. Bacteria reproduce more slowly and can continue to reproduce and
metabolize at temperatures below the ideal temperatures for yeast. These
bacteria produce organic acids and esters that change the pH of the dough
and impart many complex flavors. Therefore, if you ferment the dough at a
high temperature that favors the yeast, you get few of the flavorful
compounds but you do achieve the doubling in size that is required for most
bread. When you ferment the dough at a low temperature, it takes much
longer for the yeast to produce enough CO2 for the dough to rise thus giving
the bacteria time to do their thing.


  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2004, 11:33 PM
Kenneth
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:02:05 -0800, "H. W. Hans Kuntze"
wrote:

Of course, it also has to do with more thorough hydration of the dough,
but a slowly fermented dough just produces a better tasting product for
that matter, IMHO.


Hi Hans,

I often mention to folks that making bread is rather like making wine
in this regard....

We could certainly ferment grape juice quickly to produce something
that has some of the constituents of wine. But few would want to drink
it.

Almost without exception (in my experience) fermented foods profit
from a slower, cooler, processing. Bread included.

All the best,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2004, 05:24 AM
Dee Randall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.


"The Cook" wrote in message
...
Kenneth wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 19:38:38 -0700, "Mike Avery"
wrote:

Controlling the temperature of the dough as well as the temperature and
humidity of the proofing area are big factors in this.


Hi Mike,

On that we agree, but please note how frequently in this thread folks
talk about ways of "warming" the dough. In fact, I don't recall too
many comments about accurately measuring the temperature of the dough
or the surrounding environment.



Decided to check the loaf I started this morning. Room temp is 69.1.
Internal temp of the dough is 72.4. It doubled in 2 hours just
sitting on the counter in a plastic container with one of the "shower
cap" covers on it.

Did you use a lot of yeast to get it to do this? I cannot get my dough to
rise in less than 3-4 hours at this temperature. I never put it in the
refrigerator to rise anymore. After I take it out of the refrigerator after
and overnight and warm it up, it might take all day to rise, ALWAYS too
darned lated to have bread even that day. I certainly would love to have
that second overnight rise IN the refrigerator, but I can't get it right.

So I specifically latched on to the above
"In fact, I don't recall too
many comments about accurately measuring the temperature of the dough
or the surrounding environment."


thanks,
Dee





  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2004, 01:12 PM
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.


"Dee Randall" deedoveyatshenteldotnet wrote in message
...
So I specifically latched on to the above
"In fact, I don't recall too
many comments about accurately measuring the temperature of the dough
or the surrounding environment."


thanks,
Dee

Two possibilities I think. My daughter recently complained that she
couldn't get her wheat bread to rise. I noticed that she was taking ice
cold ingredients from storage and mixing the yeast with tepid water. That's
an easy fix. Make sure that the ingredients are room temperature warm and
use water for the yeast according to package instructions and you should end
up with a finished dough that is about 80F--perfect. The other possibility
is that you are using too much flour either in the mixing or kneading, and
the dough is too stiff to rise well--dough doesn't have to look dry and
crumbly to be too dry.
Janet


  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2004, 08:55 PM
Kent H.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.

Do you know which ovens go low enough to proof? I'm guessing the gas
oven won't temp that low. Will the Dacor?
Thanks
Kent

Vox Humana wrote:

"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do it
at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there some
good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?


I don't find that I need a proofer unless I want to speed up the process.
You get better bread with a slow rise in a cool place. You can rig a
proofing box in a number of ways. 1) put a 11x14 pan of hot water in your
oven, place the dough in a bowl, and close the door. 2) bring a 4 cup
measure of water to a boil in your microwave, put the dough in a bowl, place
in the oven, close the door. 3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water on a
tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it. 4) put a jug of hot
water in a picnic cooler with the dough and cover.

You get the idea. You just need a way to trap warm, moist air. Many newer
ovens have a "proof" setting. That turns the convection oven on at a
temperature of 100F. They usually recommend that you add a pan of boiling
water for moisture.

  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2004, 11:21 PM
Vox Humana
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.


"Kent H." wrote in message
...
Do you know which ovens go low enough to proof? I'm guessing the gas
oven won't temp that low. Will the Dacor?
Thanks
Kent


My JennAir starts at 100F. My mother's KitchenAid oven has a special proof
setting (as do the newer JennAirs among others) that is programmed at 100F.
My new Sharp Convection/Microwave also has a 100F setting that they
recommend for proofing. I would imagine that most newer ovens with
electronic controls can be set at 100F. You can get product information for
Dacor at their website.


  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-01-2004, 10:35 PM
LeftSpin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proofing bread at home.

100F is too warm. Yeast likes it at around 80F. Too cold, no rise, too hot
and the some yeast cells die off. What I do is turn my oven on to 200F, for
1 minute, and then turn it off. I have a thermapen that i use to check the
dough temperature, and that's worked for me. My first rise is 2 hours, and
the dough stays close to 80F.

My second rise is 45 minutes, and that's on the counter. I get the bottom
from a plastic storage box (shallow, but large and rectangular), invert it
over the baguettes. Then I take a measuring cup full of boiling water, and
stick it in there. The moisture and heat help the dough rise. The rolls are
laying in a piece of muslin that's been floured and waved to make little
rising beds. I still cover the rolls with plastic wrap though.

A method I learned from _The Best Bread Ever_, is to measure the temperature
of your flour. Take 145F - flour temp = water temp. After mixing in the food
processor, you'll be spot on your target temp (at least in mine). Check your
process and adjust as necessary.

Buy instant yeast instead of active yeast to bypass "activating" your yeast
in warm water. Just mix it with your dry ingredients. Instant yeast contains
very few dead yeasts, unlike active yeast, so you need less of it. I don't
have the conversion factor between the two types with me, but I could look
it up. You can use either in any recipe with the right conversion. Cook's
Illustrated had an article on it. BTW, I got a large brick of instant yeast
at a restaurant supply store for a lot less than those jars in the chain
stores (safeway, albertsons, etc). Must be about 5 or six jars worth. I
filled up a couple of jars, vacuum sealed and refrigerated the rest.

Check out this link:
http://www.gardenguides.com/recipes/...tbreadever.htm


Happy baking.

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Kent H." wrote in message
...
Do you know which ovens go low enough to proof? I'm guessing the gas
oven won't temp that low. Will the Dacor?
Thanks
Kent


My JennAir starts at 100F. My mother's KitchenAid oven has a special

proof
setting (as do the newer JennAirs among others) that is programmed at

100F.
My new Sharp Convection/Microwave also has a 100F setting that they
recommend for proofing. I would imagine that most newer ovens with
electronic controls can be set at 100F. You can get product information

for
Dacor at their website.






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