Are Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Cabernet Franc, Riesling, etc., grape
"varieties" or "varietals"?

My ear says "varieties" but many folk in the wine world say
"varietals".

What's the correct usage?

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On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:02:54 GMT, Leo Bueno
> wrote:

>
>Are Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Cabernet Franc, Riesling, etc., grape
>"varieties" or "varietals"?
>
>My ear says "varieties" but many folk in the wine world say
>"varietals".
>
>What's the correct usage?

You will probably get many different opinions on this but here's mine:

Pinot Noir, etc. are "varieties" of grape. But many people use the
terms interchangeably and I don't make a big deal of it. There are
more important things in this world to worry about.

OTH, "varietal" can be used as an adjective, as in "varietal
characteristics" or "varietal labeling", whereas "variety" cannot.

Vino
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"Leo Bueno" > wrote in message
...
>
> Are Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Cabernet Franc, Riesling, etc., grape
> "varieties" or "varietals"?
>
> My ear says "varieties" but many folk in the wine world say
> "varietals".
>
> What's the correct usage?
>
Hi Leo, your q. might be more appropriate to alt.linguistics (there's no
such thing) :-) but here's my two cents.

Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Cabernet Franc, Riesling, etc are grape varieties,
it's only when they've been made into wine and (importantly) not mixed with
another grape variety on the way, that we would call the wine (still not the
grape) a varietal.

I'm going to copy your original post to a generally well educated and
(in?)famously pedantic non- wine newsgroup. I post any interesting replies
back here.

all the best
Sammy

"Sammy" in ...
>
> "Leo Bueno" in
> ...
> >
> > Are Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Cabernet Franc, Riesling,
> > etc., grape "varieties" or "varietals"?
> >
> > My ear says "varieties" but many folk in the wine
> > world say "varietals".
> >
> > What's the correct usage?
> . . .
> I'm going to copy your original post to a generally well
> educated and (in?)famously pedantic non- wine
> newsgroup. I post any interesting repliesback here.
>

Well, a pedantic non-wine newsgroup is sure to settle it. ;-)

More seriously, a non-wine group might be at sea, because it's a term of
specialty. (I said at sea, not silent.)

In US English, varieties of grapes are sometimes called "varietals" by
people in the business. The latter word was popularized originally in the
reform effort after US Prohibition, toward labeling US wines varietally
grather than generically. Jancis Robinson in the Oxford Companion to Wine
insists that the word "varietal" is specific to wines, not grapes -- thus,
land is planted to the Zinfandel variety that goes into our Zinfandel
varietal wine. (Pedantic enough?)

(Schoonmaker and Marvel argue passionately for varietal, and also
geographical, naming for US wines in _American Wines,_ 1941. In that book
they use "varietal" for wines and "variety" for grapes.)

It's because of the old generic naming that the name "Chianti," for example,
retains some unjust stigma in the US. Historically the US wine industry
(and not just US), outside the control of the original regions using these
names, took liberties in labeling cheap commodity products with names of
important European regional wines like "Chianti" and "Chablis" and "Rhine
Wine" and "Sauterne" [no s] and "Burgundy," so that many US consumers came
to think of cheap bulk wines when they heard these names, rather than
thinking of the proud and classy wines the names came from.

-- Max

So then, is there any "proper" word that differentiates the various "wine
types" -- including blends -- as opposed to a word that just differentiates
grapes that has taken on additional usage in the US?

And are Australian Chardonnay grapes considered to be a different varietal
than California Chardonnay grapes, for example, or are they all just
considered to be "Chardonnay"?

V


"Max Hauser" wrote in message
>
> Well, a pedantic non-wine newsgroup is sure to settle it. ;-)
>
> More seriously, a non-wine group might be at sea, because it's a term of
> specialty. (I said at sea, not silent.)
>
> In US English, varieties of grapes are sometimes called "varietals" by
> people in the business. The latter word was popularized originally in the
> reform effort after US Prohibition, toward labeling US wines varietally
> grather than generically. Jancis Robinson in the Oxford Companion to Wine
> insists that the word "varietal" is specific to wines, not grapes -- thus,
> land is planted to the Zinfandel variety that goes into our Zinfandel
> varietal wine. (Pedantic enough?)
>
> (Schoonmaker and Marvel argue passionately for varietal, and also
> geographical, naming for US wines in _American Wines,_ 1941. In that book
> they use "varietal" for wines and "variety" for grapes.)
>
> It's because of the old generic naming that the name "Chianti," for
example,
> retains some unjust stigma in the US. Historically the US wine industry
> (and not just US), outside the control of the original regions using these
> names, took liberties in labeling cheap commodity products with names of
> important European regional wines like "Chianti" and "Chablis" and "Rhine
> Wine" and "Sauterne" [no s] and "Burgundy," so that many US consumers came
> to think of cheap bulk wines when they heard these names, rather than
> thinking of the proud and classy wines the names came from.
>
> -- Max
>
>

"Vincent" in m...
>
> And are Australian Chardonnay grapes considered to be a
> different varietal than California Chardonnay grapes,
> for example, or are they all just considered to be "Chardonnay"?

Per my previous info the grapes would always be a "variety," whether same or
different. There are many sub-types of major grape varieties, for example
the Pinot Noir versions used in Champagne blending are not the same used in
red Burgundies, but they are all of the major variety Pinot Noir.

> Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Cabernet Franc, Riesling, etc are grape varieties,
> it's only when they've been made into wine and (importantly) not mixed
with
> another grape variety on the way, that we would call the wine (still not
the
> grape) a varietal.
>
> all the best
> Sammy
>
>
The Canadian Oxford Dictionary (Second Edition) agrees completely.
--
Regards
Chuck
So much wine; So little time!

To reply, delete NOSPAM from return address

> Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Cabernet Franc, Riesling, etc are grape varieties,
> it's only when they've been made into wine and (importantly) not mixed
with
> another grape variety on the way, that we would call the wine (still not
the
> grape) a varietal.
>
> all the best
> Sammy
>
>
The Canadian Oxford Dictionary (Second Edition) agrees completely.
--
Regards
Chuck
So much wine; So little time!

To reply, delete NOSPAM from return address

Leo Bueno wrote:

> Are Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Cabernet Franc, Riesling, etc., grape
> "varieties" or "varietals"?
>
> My ear says "varieties" but many folk in the wine world say
> "varietals".
>
> What's the correct usage?

Leo,
I agree with what's already been said here. To me, "varietal"
stands in opposition to "geographical" as a labeling strategy for wine.
I think that many people use "varietal" indiscriminantly to describe
grape varieties, but that's just sloppy usage to me.

Mark Lipton

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:51:25 -0500, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>Leo Bueno wrote:
>
>> Are Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Cabernet Franc, Riesling, etc., grape
>> "varieties" or "varietals"?
>>
>> My ear says "varieties" but many folk in the wine world say
>> "varietals".
>>
>> What's the correct usage?
>
>Leo,
> I agree with what's already been said here. To me, "varietal"
>stands in opposition to "geographical" as a labeling strategy for wine.
> I think that many people use "varietal" indiscriminantly to describe
>grape varieties, but that's just sloppy usage to me.

I'd be interested in the views of others, but personally I thinl the
labelling is the key here.

A wine with a label saying "Syrah" is varietal, even though in the EU
it may contain upto 15% other grapes.

A red AC Burgundy is almost certainly 100% Pinot Noir, but I would not
think of it as a varietal.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:24:57 +0100, Steve Slatcher
> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:51:25 -0500, Mark Lipton >
>wrote:
>
>>Leo Bueno wrote:
>>
>>> Are Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Cabernet Franc, Riesling, etc., grape
>>> "varieties" or "varietals"?
>>>
>>> My ear says "varieties" but many folk in the wine world say
>>> "varietals".
>>>
>>> What's the correct usage?
>>
>>Leo,
>> I agree with what's already been said here. To me, "varietal"
>>stands in opposition to "geographical" as a labeling strategy for wine.
>> I think that many people use "varietal" indiscriminantly to describe
>>grape varieties, but that's just sloppy usage to me.

I would not disagree with these views.
>
>I'd be interested in the views of others, but personally I thinl the
>labelling is the key here.
>
>A wine with a label saying "Syrah" is varietal, even though in the EU
>it may contain upto 15% other grapes.

In the USA, it's 25%, except in Oregon, where I think the figure is
10%. Also, there are no restrictions on what wines can be blended. In
theory, one could bottle a wine containing 75% chardonnay and 25%
cabernet sauvignon and label it as chardonnay. *Why* anyone would want
to do that is another question entirely. ;-)
>
>A red AC Burgundy is almost certainly 100% Pinot Noir, but I would not
>think of it as a varietal.

But would you say that the best such wines express the varietal
characteristics of pinot noir? I would.

Vino
To reply, add "x" between
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e-mail address.

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:33:54 GMT, Vino > wrote:

>>A red AC Burgundy is almost certainly 100% Pinot Noir, but I would not
>>think of it as a varietal.
>
>But would you say that the best such wines express the varietal
>characteristics of pinot noir? I would.

Yes.

But I think there is also something vaguely Burgundian about them. I'm
talking about good straight Burgundy here - not the fancy stuff.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher