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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Victor Sack
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette

Recently, we ate at a Vietnamese restaurant, possibly the only truly
authentic one in Germany. Among other things, we had whole curried frog
legs, as well as whole, unpeeled giant prawns, some deep-fried, some
grilled. Only chopsticks were provided. Whole large frog legs are as
impossible to eat with chopsticks as whole chicken legs. Besides,
covered with thick curry sauce, they were rather messy, of course.
Giant prawns needed to be peeled, but were very hot indeed. We ate them
all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant was
full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...

Victor
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Aria
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette

As long as you enjoyed yourself, who cares?

"Victor Sack" > wrote in message
...
> Recently, we ate at a Vietnamese restaurant, possibly the only truly
> authentic one in Germany. Among other things, we had whole curried frog
> legs, as well as whole, unpeeled giant prawns, some deep-fried, some
> grilled. Only chopsticks were provided. Whole large frog legs are as
> impossible to eat with chopsticks as whole chicken legs. Besides,
> covered with thick curry sauce, they were rather messy, of course.
> Giant prawns needed to be peeled, but were very hot indeed. We ate them
> all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant was
> full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
> were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...
>
> Victor



  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dan Logcher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette

You shouldn't just do anything "as long as you enjoy yourself".
Etiquette is dying because of this attitude, and it's a shame.
Rude and boorish behavior is becoming the norm.

In this particular example, I do not see anything wrong. But again,
I am not an expert in etiquette, Vietnamese or otherwise.

--
Dan

Aria wrote:

> As long as you enjoyed yourself, who cares?
>
> "Victor Sack" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Recently, we ate at a Vietnamese restaurant, possibly the only truly
>>authentic one in Germany. Among other things, we had whole curried frog
>>legs, as well as whole, unpeeled giant prawns, some deep-fried, some
>>grilled. Only chopsticks were provided. Whole large frog legs are as
>>impossible to eat with chopsticks as whole chicken legs. Besides,
>>covered with thick curry sauce, they were rather messy, of course.
>>Giant prawns needed to be peeled, but were very hot indeed. We ate them
>>all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant was
>>full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
>>were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...
>>
>>Victor
>>

>
>




--
Dan

  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
James Silverton
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette


"Dan Logcher" > wrote in message
...
> You shouldn't just do anything "as long as you enjoy yourself".
> Etiquette is dying because of this attitude, and it's a shame.
> Rude and boorish behavior is becoming the norm.
>
> In this particular example, I do not see anything wrong. But again,
> I am not an expert in etiquette, Vietnamese or otherwise.
>

.. We ate them
> >>all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant was
> >>full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
> >>were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...
> >>
> >>Victor
> >>


I'm no expert on Vietnamese food since the commonest thing I eat is Pho.
Everyone seems to use chopsticks for that but, of course, the soup is
finished off with a spoon. The best Vietnamese restaurant that I know is
French influenced and does provide chopsticks but I wonder if that is a
response to what people expect? Certainly, on a slightly different topic, I
have been told by Thais that the normal utensils in Thailand are a spoon and
a fork but many people ask for chopsticks in restaurants around here.

As we all know, there is an infinite variety of Asian food and fingers *are*
used. Some forms of sushi are impossible to eat with chopsticks being much
too big for one bite and I certainly can't cut them with chopsticks tho'
I've seen a Chinese person do just that!


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rona Yuthasastrakosol
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette




"James Silverton" > wrote in message
...

>
> I'm no expert on Vietnamese food since the commonest thing I eat is Pho.
> Everyone seems to use chopsticks for that but, of course, the soup is
> finished off with a spoon. The best Vietnamese restaurant that I know is
> French influenced and does provide chopsticks but I wonder if that is a
> response to what people expect?


The Vietnamese restaurants I go to usually provide a spoon, fork, and
chopsticks so perhaps some dishes require chopsticks while others require a
spoon and fork?

>Certainly, on a slightly different topic, I
> have been told by Thais that the normal utensils in Thailand are a spoon

and
> a fork but many people ask for chopsticks in restaurants around here.
>


That's because farangs often think any Asian (non-subcontinental) food
should be eaten with chopsticks and doing so makes them more "worldly."
Ignorance is bliss, and all that. Plus many Thai restaurants are not Thai
at all and the owners/managers do not know anything about Thai food. I have
been to more than one Thai restaurant that provided chopsticks as the only
eating utensils (unless asked for something else). However, some Thai
dishes are eaten with chopsticks--primarily noodle dishes including pad
thai.

> As we all know, there is an infinite variety of Asian food and fingers

*are*
> used. Some forms of sushi are impossible to eat with chopsticks being much
> too big for one bite and I certainly can't cut them with chopsticks tho'
> I've seen a Chinese person do just that!
>
>
>

Sushi is traditionally eaten with your hands, anyway (though even in Japan,
many people will use chopsticks) and eaten whole, not bitten into
(nigirizushi, not so much makizushi or temakizushi).

--
***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!*** --




  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
James Silverton
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette


"Rona Yuthasastrakosol" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> "James Silverton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > I'm no expert on Vietnamese food since the commonest thing I eat is Pho.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Deletions<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<


I have
> been to more than one Thai restaurant that provided chopsticks as the only
> eating utensils (unless asked for something else). However, some Thai
> dishes are eaten with chopsticks--primarily noodle dishes including pad
> thai.
>


I'd certainly agree there. Chopsticks seem to me to be the ideal implements
for noodles tho' spoon and fork can be used; witness some Italians eating
spaghetti! Incidentally, I *have* eaten spaghetti with chopsticks and they
*do* work!


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dennis Rekuta
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette

In article >, sackv@uni-
duesseldorf.de says...
> Recently, we ate at a Vietnamese restaurant, possibly the only truly
> authentic one in Germany. Among other things, we had whole curried frog
> legs, as well as whole, unpeeled giant prawns, some deep-fried, some
> grilled. Only chopsticks were provided. Whole large frog legs are as
> impossible to eat with chopsticks as whole chicken legs. Besides,
> covered with thick curry sauce, they were rather messy, of course.
> Giant prawns needed to be peeled, but were very hot indeed. We ate them
> all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant was
> full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
> were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...
>
> Victor
>

I took a quick poll of my co-workers, about 90 per cent of whom are
Vietnamese. They basically said, "how else were you going to eat them?"
You should have been given, or asked for, a lot of napkins to wipe your
hands while eating. Other than a knife or the platter serving spoon to
dis-joint the frog legs, they would have just used their fingers as you
did. In general, those large prawns they peel by hand, and then some of
them would finish them with chopsticks. The others said they would just
continue using their fingers to hold them while dipping them into sauces,
especially if they were at home, or at less formal restaurant.

The smaller headless shrimp can be eaten shell and all if you are used to
them, except for the tail.

Dennis
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alai
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette

"Victor Sack" > wrote in message
...
> Recently, we ate at a Vietnamese restaurant, possibly the only truly
> authentic one in Germany. Among other things, we had whole curried frog
> legs, as well as whole, unpeeled giant prawns, some deep-fried, some
> grilled. Only chopsticks were provided. Whole large frog legs are as
> impossible to eat with chopsticks as whole chicken legs. Besides,
> covered with thick curry sauce, they were rather messy, of course.
> Giant prawns needed to be peeled, but were very hot indeed. We ate them
> all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant was
> full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
> were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...


About 15 years ago, when I was in ESL class(in Jr high), we had to bring
some of our food for a little party in class. The vietnamese kids brought
some sort of noodle, and they were all eating it with their hands. Of
course, being Korean, we looked at them and went "what are they doing..."


  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette


"Rona Yuthasastrakosol" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> "James Silverton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > I'm no expert on Vietnamese food since the commonest thing I eat is Pho.
> > Everyone seems to use chopsticks for that but, of course, the soup is
> > finished off with a spoon. The best Vietnamese restaurant that I know is
> > French influenced and does provide chopsticks but I wonder if that is a
> > response to what people expect?

>
> The Vietnamese restaurants I go to usually provide a spoon, fork, and
> chopsticks so perhaps some dishes require chopsticks while others require

a
> spoon and fork?



No, Vietnamese use chopsticks for everything. No spoons or forks (except
for Chinese-style soup spoons, of course).

Peter


  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dan Logcher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette

James Silverton wrote:

> "Dan Logcher" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>You shouldn't just do anything "as long as you enjoy yourself".
>>Etiquette is dying because of this attitude, and it's a shame.
>>Rude and boorish behavior is becoming the norm.
>>
>>In this particular example, I do not see anything wrong. But again,
>>I am not an expert in etiquette, Vietnamese or otherwise.
>>
>>

> . We ate them
>
>>>>all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant was
>>>>full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
>>>>were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...
>>>>
>>>>Victor
>>>>
>>>>

>
> I'm no expert on Vietnamese food since the commonest thing I eat is Pho.
> Everyone seems to use chopsticks for that but, of course, the soup is
> finished off with a spoon. The best Vietnamese restaurant that I know is
> French influenced and does provide chopsticks but I wonder if that is a
> response to what people expect? Certainly, on a slightly different topic, I
> have been told by Thais that the normal utensils in Thailand are a spoon and
> a fork but many people ask for chopsticks in restaurants around here.



This is correct. From my experience, Thais do not use chopsticks, but
instead a fork and spoon.

If dining at a restaurant that serves more than just Thai, chance are
you will be given both fork and shopsticks with that spoon. For me,
when I Pho, I use chopsticks and spoon.

--
Dan



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
amalia
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette

"Dennis Rekuta" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, sackv@uni-
> duesseldorf.de says...
> > Recently, we ate at a Vietnamese restaurant, possibly the only truly
> > authentic one in Germany. Among other things, we had whole curried frog
> > legs, as well as whole, unpeeled giant prawns, some deep-fried, some
> > grilled. Only chopsticks were provided. Whole large frog legs are as
> > impossible to eat with chopsticks as whole chicken legs. Besides,
> > covered with thick curry sauce, they were rather messy, of course.
> > Giant prawns needed to be peeled, but were very hot indeed. We ate them
> > all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant was
> > full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
> > were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...
> >
> > Victor
> >

> I took a quick poll of my co-workers, about 90 per cent of whom are
> Vietnamese. They basically said, "how else were you going to eat them?"
> You should have been given, or asked for, a lot of napkins to wipe your
> hands while eating. Other than a knife or the platter serving spoon to
> dis-joint the frog legs, they would have just used their fingers as you
> did. In general, those large prawns they peel by hand, and then some of
> them would finish them with chopsticks. The others said they would just
> continue using their fingers to hold them while dipping them into sauces,
> especially if they were at home, or at less formal restaurant.


This fits my experience in Vietnam. Although I am by no means an expert, my
husband and I try to be observant of etiquette when we sit down in a new
place. I recall one seafood restaurant in Saigon where the clientele was
very middle class/professional. We visited this place a few times and saw
people eating with chopsticks and fingers, larger pieces of bones and shells
were tossed on the floor, and the staff swept under the table after each
party left. I don't know if this is standard, it certainly wasn't at Saigon
market stalls.

But in both places, customers were provided with plastic-wrapped damp cloths
to wipe up after the meal.

-Amalia


  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Victor Sack
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette

Dennis Rekuta > wrote:

> I took a quick poll of my co-workers, about 90 per cent of whom are
> Vietnamese. They basically said, "how else were you going to eat them?"
> You should have been given, or asked for, a lot of napkins to wipe your
> hands while eating.


Indeed. I've now eaten at the restaurant again and, this time, there
was a waiter speaking enough German, so I asked. One is supposed to eat
such things as frog legs and large shrimp with one's fingers. There
were only a few very small, flimsy papaer napkins provided, though.
Otherwise, chopsticks are always used, I was told, as well as a spoon
for soup only. In this respect, Vietnamese customs differ from Thai
ones, it seems.

Now I have some other questions. Here are some things left untranslated
on the menu and the waiters weren't much help. Sorry for the lack of
diacritics.

- 'Keo', as in 'Canh chua ca keo'. I know this is sour soup with fish,
and was told it was some kind of small fish. What fish is it exactly?

- Do long pha lau: Doi truong, bao tu, luoi heo, thit dui, tai heo

- Khan long bo hap tau xi

- Gan bo hap tau xi

- Chan ga hap tau xi

- To com lon

- Dia rau thom

- Dia bun

- What is 'nem', as 'in nem nuong cuon'? Minced pork? Meatballs? Is
this spring roll steamed or fried? Is it supposed to be served hot or
cold?

TIA

Victor
  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rona Yuthasastrakosol
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette



"Peter Dy" > wrote in message
m...
>
>
> No, Vietnamese use chopsticks for everything. No spoons or forks (except
> for Chinese-style soup spoons, of course).
>
> Peter
>
>


Interesting. There is one Vietnamese restaurant that we frequent and it
isn't really a restaurant but more of a take-out place (they do have 4 or 5
small tables but you choose your food cafeteria style). They always give us
chopsticks when we order pho, but a spoon and fork when we order a combo
plate (rice or noodles plus 3 other dishes of your choice). I wonder if
they do that because they know we're Thai/Filipino. I've never noticed what
they give Vietnamese people, so I'll try to pay more attention next time we
go.

Speaking of Filipinos, my mother's family always uses spoons and forks, too,
and when I lived in the Phil. I only remember those utensils being common at
the table. The maids would either use spoons or their fingers to eat. In
your experience, which is standard?

rona
--
***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!***


  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette


"Rona Yuthasastrakosol" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Peter Dy" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> >
> > No, Vietnamese use chopsticks for everything. No spoons or forks

(except
> > for Chinese-style soup spoons, of course).
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >

>
> Interesting. There is one Vietnamese restaurant that we frequent and it
> isn't really a restaurant but more of a take-out place (they do have 4 or

5
> small tables but you choose your food cafeteria style). They always give

us
> chopsticks when we order pho, but a spoon and fork when we order a combo
> plate (rice or noodles plus 3 other dishes of your choice). I wonder if
> they do that because they know we're Thai/Filipino.



Maybe. Of course, they usually eat with rice bowls; if the food/rice is on
a plate, a Western influence, then spoons or forks may be preferred.
Chinese eat rice on a plate with spoons quite often (usually?).


I've never noticed what
> they give Vietnamese people, so I'll try to pay more attention next time

we
> go.
>
> Speaking of Filipinos, my mother's family always uses spoons and forks,

too,
> and when I lived in the Phil. I only remember those utensils being common

at
> the table. The maids would either use spoons or their fingers to eat. In
> your experience, which is standard?



Yeah. My understanding is that all of SE Asia uses spoon & fork; only
Vietnam uses chopsticks. (And in some areas people eat with their fingers,
of course, like NE Thailand.) In the Philippines, eating with fingers is
the "traditional" way, though I doubt that any of my relatives have ever
eaten with their fingers. But there are restaurants now that try to create
a "traditional" setting, without chairs and without spoon & forks -- you eat
with your fingers. I haven't been to one of those restaurants though.

Peter


  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
clifford wong
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette


"amalia" > ¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó·s»D
:rWZfb.502354$cF.178385@rwcrnsc53...
> "Dennis Rekuta" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, sackv@uni-
> > duesseldorf.de says...
> > > Recently, we ate at a Vietnamese restaurant, possibly the only truly
> > > authentic one in Germany. Among other things, we had whole curried

frog
> > > legs, as well as whole, unpeeled giant prawns, some deep-fried, some
> > > grilled. Only chopsticks were provided. Whole large frog legs are as
> > > impossible to eat with chopsticks as whole chicken legs. Besides,
> > > covered with thick curry sauce, they were rather messy, of course.
> > > Giant prawns needed to be peeled, but were very hot indeed. We ate

them
> > > all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant

was
> > > full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
> > > were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...
> > >
> > > Victor
> > >

> > I took a quick poll of my co-workers, about 90 per cent of whom are
> > Vietnamese. They basically said, "how else were you going to eat them?"
> > You should have been given, or asked for, a lot of napkins to wipe your
> > hands while eating. Other than a knife or the platter serving spoon to
> > dis-joint the frog legs, they would have just used their fingers as you
> > did. In general, those large prawns they peel by hand, and then some of
> > them would finish them with chopsticks. The others said they would just
> > continue using their fingers to hold them while dipping them into

sauces,
> > especially if they were at home, or at less formal restaurant.

>
> This fits my experience in Vietnam. Although I am by no means an expert,

my
> husband and I try to be observant of etiquette when we sit down in a new
> place. I recall one seafood restaurant in Saigon where the clientele was
> very middle class/professional. We visited this place a few times and saw
> people eating with chopsticks and fingers, larger pieces of bones and

shells
> were tossed on the floor, and the staff swept under the table after each
> party left. I don't know if this is standard, it certainly wasn't at

Saigon
> market stalls.
>
> But in both places, customers were provided with plastic-wrapped damp

cloths
> to wipe up after the meal.
>
> -Amalia
>
>

i am hongkonger, my eng. is not good at all, but i just want to say that i
totally agreed with dennis, amalia and vitor. among the vietnamese table
etiquette, fingers, chopsticks and spoon are used only.

Clifford Wong




  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tippi
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette

"Peter Dy" > wrote in message
> Chinese eat rice on a plate with spoons quite often (usually?).


Either with chopsticks and a chinese style spoon, or fork and spoon "western style".
  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
clifford wong
 
Posts: n/a
Default ot: Vietnamese table etiquette


"Victor Sack" > ¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó·s»D
...
> Recently, we ate at a Vietnamese restaurant, possibly the only truly
> authentic one in Germany. Among other things, we had whole curried frog
> legs, as well as whole, unpeeled giant prawns, some deep-fried, some
> grilled. Only chopsticks were provided. Whole large frog legs are as
> impossible to eat with chopsticks as whole chicken legs. Besides,
> covered with thick curry sauce, they were rather messy, of course.
> Giant prawns needed to be peeled, but were very hot indeed. We ate them
> all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant was
> full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
> were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...
>
> Victor


what is the meaning of "farangs' uncouth behaviour"? my eng is not good.
many thanks

clifford


  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tippi
 
Posts: n/a
Default ot: Vietnamese table etiquette

"clifford wong" > wrote
>
> what is the meaning of "farangs' uncouth behaviour"? my eng is not good.


foreigner's unrefined behaviour. Reminds me of a story someone told
me, he was from New Zealand, the first time he dined with a Chinese
family, they kept offering him food and he kept accepting until he was
bursting, not knowing he is expected to decline. I told him that no
doubt the family thought him barbaric, lacking the merest decency to
refuse!
  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ken Berry
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette



Steve Wertz wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 23:19:15 +0200, (Victor
> Sack) wrote:
>
> >Steve Wertz > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:42:55 +0200,
(Victor
> >> Sack) wrote:
> >>
> >> >- What is 'nem', as 'in nem nuong cuon'? Minced pork? Meatballs? Is
> >> >this spring roll steamed or fried? Is it supposed to be served hot or
> >> >cold?
> >>
> >> Grilled pork meatball spring roll - fresh.

> >
> >'Fresh' meaning it is served cold?

>
> It's simply a spring roll, with sliced 'pinkish' pork meatballs
> instead of the long-sliced shrimp that most are accustomed to in fresh
> spring rolls.
>
> Sometimes the meatballs are more of a pate'. The rolls themsleves are
> served at room temperature.
>
> Most often, 'nem' refers to a cured pork contraption (of some sort,
> usually cured with phosphates), but can be any minced pork spread or
> meatball.
>
> I use the term 'spring roll' meaning they are wrapped with rice paper
> and conatining fresh greens - never fried, just as in thai cuisine.
>
> -sw


Sorry -- but the Nem Nuong that I have eaten a number of times in Saigon were
not wrapped in rice paper but in green leaves. Rice vermicelli was, however,
normally served with it. Most often the green leaves were lettuce leaves which
you wrapped yourself (like Sang Choy Bao) or else, in one upper class
restaurant claiming to serve 'imperial' Vietnamese food from Hue, wrapped in
some local, almost bitter leaf whose name I was never able to discover. But it
gave a delightful contrast to the pork. I agree, though, that the pork can
come in a variety of ways, although it seemed to me that pounding the pork
into sausage-like rissoles and then grilling them over charcoal before serving
them with the leaves etc, was the most common method.

--
Ken Berry




  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ken Berry
 
Posts: n/a
Default ot: Vietnamese table etiquette



clifford wong wrote:

> "Victor Sack" > ¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó·s»D
> ...
> > Recently, we ate at a Vietnamese restaurant, possibly the only truly
> > authentic one in Germany. Among other things, we had whole curried frog
> > legs, as well as whole, unpeeled giant prawns, some deep-fried, some
> > grilled. Only chopsticks were provided. Whole large frog legs are as
> > impossible to eat with chopsticks as whole chicken legs. Besides,
> > covered with thick curry sauce, they were rather messy, of course.
> > Giant prawns needed to be peeled, but were very hot indeed. We ate them
> > all using our fingers regardless. Was this correct? The restaurant was
> > full of Vietnamese who didn't appear to be surprised, but maybe they
> > were just polite or used to farangs' uncouth behaviour...
> >
> > Victor

>
> what is the meaning of "farangs' uncouth behaviour"? my eng is not good.
> many thanks
>
> clifford


'Farang' was the (IIRC) Thai pronunciation of 'Frank', which is what they used
to call all Europeans who came to Asia in the sixteenth and seventeenth
centuries. It is still used to describe 'foreigners' from Europe, though is
probably used more widely than in Thailand these days -- including by
'farangs' to describe themselves. As foreigners, they often don't know what
local customs are, and their behaviour was often regarded by locals as being
uncouth i.e. not civilized.

--
Ken Berry


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Victor Sack
 
Posts: n/a
Default ot: Vietnamese table etiquette

clifford wong > wrote:

> what is the meaning of "farangs' uncouth behaviour"? my eng is not good.
> many thanks


Farangs = foreigners, as they are often called in Thailand and Vietnam.
'Uncouth' means uncultured, uncivilised, clumsy.

Victor
  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Victor Sack
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette

Steve Wertz > wrote:

> I use the term 'spring roll' meaning they are wrapped with rice paper
> and conatining fresh greens - never fried, just as in thai cuisine.


How would you describe 'cha gio'? I was told (not by a Vietnamese,
though) that they are also spring rolls that are fried and served hot.

Victor
  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
amalia
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette

"Ken Berry" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Wertz wrote:
> > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 23:19:15 +0200, (Victor
> > Sack) wrote:
> > >Steve Wertz > wrote:
> > >> On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:42:55 +0200,

> > >> (Victor Sack) wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >- What is 'nem', as 'in nem nuong cuon'? Minced pork? Meatballs?

Is
> > >> >this spring roll steamed or fried? Is it supposed to be served hot

or
> > >> >cold?
> > >>
> > >> Grilled pork meatball spring roll - fresh.
> > >
> > >'Fresh' meaning it is served cold?

> >
> > It's simply a spring roll, with sliced 'pinkish' pork meatballs
> > instead of the long-sliced shrimp that most are accustomed to in fresh
> > spring rolls. [...]


> Sorry -- but the Nem Nuong that I have eaten a number of times in Saigon

were
> not wrapped in rice paper but in green leaves. Rice vermicelli was,

however,
> normally served with it. Most often the green leaves were lettuce leaves

which
> you wrapped yourself (like Sang Choy Bao) or else, in one upper class
> restaurant claiming to serve 'imperial' Vietnamese food from Hue, wrapped

in
> some local, almost bitter leaf whose name I was never able to discover.


This is the way I had the dish in Vietnam as well, with larger lettuce
leaves or the bitter leaf you describe, and is the way the recipe is given
in the _Savoring Southeast Asia_ cookbook, but I have found that here in the
US the dish is usually served with rice paper and fixings.

Victor, it would be interesting to learn what accompaniments are served in
Germany.

-Amalia


  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
amalia
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette

"Victor Sack" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Wertz > wrote:
>
> > I use the term 'spring roll' meaning they are wrapped with rice paper
> > and conatining fresh greens - never fried, just as in thai cuisine.

>
> How would you describe 'cha gio'? I was told (not by a Vietnamese,
> though) that they are also spring rolls that are fried and served hot.


Cha gio is filled with julienned vegetables, ground pork and vermicelli, and
fried and served hot as you describe. These are usually served with lettuce
leaves, vermicelli, herbs and a dipping sauce for you to season and wrap as
you like at table. They are smaller and more delicate than the egg rolls
commonly served in US Chinese restaurants.

OT, but how are Chinese egg rolls served in Europe, or better yet, in China?

Amalia




  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette


"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> I use the term 'spring roll' meaning they are wrapped with rice paper
> and conatining fresh greens - never fried, just as in thai cuisine.



Why do you use it like that? Spring roll is from Chinese chun1juan3,
"spring roll", and they are always fried and almost always with wheat
wrappers.

Peter


  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
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"amalia" > wrote in message
news:0mKgb.698612$YN5.570958@sccrnsc01...
> "Victor Sack" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Steve Wertz > wrote:
> >
> > > I use the term 'spring roll' meaning they are wrapped with rice paper
> > > and conatining fresh greens - never fried, just as in thai cuisine.

> >
> > How would you describe 'cha gio'? I was told (not by a Vietnamese,
> > though) that they are also spring rolls that are fried and served hot.

>
> Cha gio is filled with julienned vegetables, ground pork and vermicelli,

and
> fried and served hot as you describe. These are usually served with

lettuce
> leaves, vermicelli, herbs and a dipping sauce for you to season and wrap

as
> you like at table. They are smaller and more delicate than the egg rolls
> commonly served in US Chinese restaurants.



More delicate, because they use rice wrappers instead of wheat wrappers as
the Chinese do. In the North, they're called "nem ran".


> OT, but how are Chinese egg rolls served in Europe, or better yet, in

China?


In China, just by themselves usually, as far as I remember. In Europe, just
what a spring/egg roll is differs depending on where you are. In Germany,
they are a unique German creation, rectangular and flat, with a soft, barely
crispy wheat wrapper. Unless things have changed recently. In France, at
least in Paris, they have great "nem ran" in Vietnamese restaurants, served
just like in Vietnam, as you describe. Don't know about how Chinese rolls
are served there though.

BTW, Victor, where in Germany is that Vietnamese restaurant?

Peter


  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
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"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
news
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 02:56:07 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >[...]
> >> I use the term 'spring roll' meaning they are wrapped with rice paper
> >> and conatining fresh greens - never fried, just as in thai cuisine.

> >
> >
> >Why do you use it like that? Spring roll is from Chinese chun1juan3,
> >"spring roll", and they are always fried and almost always with wheat
> >wrappers.

>
> So what do you call fresh vermicelli/salad/meat rolls wrapped in rice
> rehydrated paper and uncooked?


I call them "fresh spring rolls". Mai Pham calls them "salad rolls".
Restaurants mostly call them "spring rolls" though, I guess, can't find my
restaurant menu collection at the moment. I seem to remember them being
called "garden rolls" as well, not sure. In Vietnamese, "cuon" means roll,
so the fresh ones are called "pork roll", "shrimp roll".

Actually, maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. Do you always use "spring
roll" to refer to the fresh Vietnamese rolls, or was it just for that post?

Peter


  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette


"Peter Dy" > wrote in message
om...
[...]
> Actually, maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. Do you always use "spring
> roll" to refer to the fresh Vietnamese rolls, or was it just for that

post?


I meant, do you call Vietnamese rolls "spring rolls" and Chinese deep-fried
rolls something else?

Peter


  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette


"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 06:07:12 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Peter Dy" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >[...]
> >> Actually, maybe I misunderstood what you wrote. Do you always use

"spring
> >> roll" to refer to the fresh Vietnamese rolls, or was it just for that

> >post?
> >
> >
> >I meant, do you call Vietnamese rolls "spring rolls" and Chinese

deep-fried
> >rolls something else?

>
> Many menus I've seen don't specify whether their "spring rolls" are
> the fried kind or the fresh kind. I tend to always use the term
> "spring roll" as the fresh kind, and "egg roll" for the fried kind.
> The cheaper (less austhentic) vietnamese restaurnts seem to
> consistently use these terms as well. The more authentic the
> restaurant, the more vietanmese you have to know to discern whether
> its fried or not (what term indicates that it's fried?).



Well, it should be that the fried ones are called "cha gio" (or "nem ran",
though that's not a common appelation in the US). The fresh rolls should
have the word "cuon" (roll) in the name. Cha Gio/Nem Ran should be made
with rice wrappers. But Cha Gio/Nem Ran is not a traditional southern dish,
and most Vietnamese in the US are from the south. Also, many (most?)
Vietnamese in the US are Chinese-Vietnamese -- most came here not because of
the fall of Saigon, but because of the anti-Chinese actions afterwards. So,
maybe that is why we in the US see so many deep-fried, wheat-wrapper "spring
rolls"?

But you're right -- looking at the English-language part of the menu, it is
hard to tell if they are the fresh kind or the deep-fried kind.


> I can cook vietnamese, I just can't read or speak it :-)


Me neither. Looked it up in my dictionary. I love dictionaries.

But my argument was actually this: Egg Rolls are long, super-thick things.
They are an American creation. They are made with a large, thick, wheat
wrapper, which, when deep fried, doesn't get totally crisp -- instead, the
outside is often leathery and has small blisters on it, and part of the
wrapper on the inside is still soft and white in color. Egg Rolls are what
I grew up eating in crappy Americanized Chinese restaurants in Cleveland.
When I moved to CA, I got acquainted with spring rolls, in other words, with
authentic Chinese super-crispy, thin rolls. Thus, I always thought spring
rolls entered the English language in reference to authentic-style Chinese
rolls, not to describe anything Vietnamese.

Peter





  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
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"Tippi" > wrote in message
om...
> "Peter Dy" > wrote in message
> > Chinese eat rice on a plate with spoons quite often (usually?).

>
> Either with chopsticks and a chinese style spoon, or fork and spoon

"western style".


Yes. Though, I've never seen it done with Chinese-style spoons, only with
metal Western ones.

Peter


  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
amalia
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 07:41:54 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> wrote:
> I just remembered another englidh namefor the fried ones: Imperial
> rolls (someone mentioned 'imperial-style' earlier but it didn't sink
> in).
>
> >But my argument was actually this: Egg Rolls are long, super-thick

things.
> >They are an American creation. They are made with a large, thick, wheat
> >wrapper, which, when deep fried, doesn't get totally crisp -- instead,

the
> >outside is often leathery and has small blisters on it, and part of the
> >wrapper on the inside is still soft and white in color. Egg Rolls are

what
> >I grew up eating in crappy Americanized Chinese restaurants in Cleveland.


These are also an east coast US thing, right? And people dip them in Duck
Sauce?

> >When I moved to CA, I got acquainted with spring rolls, in other words,

with
> >authentic Chinese super-crispy, thin rolls.


Thanks for your earlier post on these, Peter.

> Thre's two kinds of wheat wrappers, the ones you describe - thick.
> The other are also wheat flour based but really thin, also called
> spring roll wrappers (ugh). You have to peel them apart gently or
> they rip. They fry up nice and crispy like rice paper wrappers(and
> are not edible raw). These are most common in vietnamese restaurants.
> Finding deep fried rice paper wrapped spring rolls is pretty
> difficult.


I've seen these in restaurants and I think I've used them at home. They were
in a red package with black writing and I believe the part of the label in
English said Spring Roll/Lumpia wrapper. These worked best for the baked
imperial roll (I was trying to recall this name, too) my sister developed
for my dad, who is or should be off fried foods.

-Amalia


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tippi
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette

"Peter Dy" > wrote

> > > Chinese eat rice on a plate with spoons quite often (usually?).

> >
> > Either with chopsticks and a chinese style spoon, or fork and spoon

> "western style".
>
> Yes. Though, I've never seen it done with Chinese-style spoons, only with
> metal Western ones.


well here in Toronto when you go to a Chinese restaurent a
Chinese-style spoon is almost always provided (but not in Vietnamese
restaurents).
  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Victor Sack
 
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amalia > wrote:

> Victor, it would be interesting to learn what accompaniments are served in
> Germany.


I have yet to try the kind of spring rolls one wraps oneself. They are
on the menu, but the descriptions are rather spartan, for example "bun
thit nuong, rau thom", translated as rice noodles with grilled pork and
herbs. So far, I've tried only salad rolls, served cold. They
contained some green vegetables and a few small prawns, wrapped in
transparent rice paper. They were very bland, even with the dipping
sauce and I didn't like them much.

Victor
  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Victor Sack
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette

Peter Dy > wrote:

> "amalia" > wrote in message
> news:0mKgb.698612$YN5.570958@sccrnsc01...
>
> > OT, but how are Chinese egg rolls served in Europe, or better yet, in
> > China?

>
> In China, just by themselves usually, as far as I remember. In Europe, just
> what a spring/egg roll is differs depending on where you are. In Germany,
> they are a unique German creation, rectangular and flat, with a soft, barely
> crispy wheat wrapper.


Depending on the restaurant, there are also conventional cylindrical
rolls which could be crispy.

> BTW, Victor, where in Germany is that Vietnamese restaurant?


In Düsseldorf.

Victor


  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ken Berry
 
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If I recall my time in Manila 25 years ago correctly, the Filipinos call
them 'fresh lumpia' or sometimes 'raw lumpia'...

Steve Wertz wrote:

> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 02:56:07 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >[...]
> >> I use the term 'spring roll' meaning they are wrapped with rice paper
> >> and conatining fresh greens - never fried, just as in thai cuisine.

> >
> >
> >Why do you use it like that? Spring roll is from Chinese chun1juan3,
> >"spring roll", and they are always fried and almost always with wheat
> >wrappers.

>
> So what do you call fresh vermicelli/salad/meat rolls wrapped in rice
> rehydrated paper and uncooked?
>
> -sw


--
Ken Berry
Tel/Fax: (61 2) 6258 0032
Mobile: 0429 99 88 67
Coast: (61 2) 4471 5782
e-mail:


  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tippi
 
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"amalia" > wrote in message
> Cha gio is filled with julienned vegetables, ground pork and vermicelli, and
> fried and served hot as you describe.


In Toronto there used to be some that has crab meat as well.
>
> OT, but how are Chinese egg rolls served in Europe, or better yet, in China?


In Hong Kong, we would serve them with Worcestershire sauce for dim
sum. In Northern China cuisine, they can be dipped in black vinegar.
  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Betty Lee
 
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Default Vietnamese table etiquette

Steve Wertz > wrote:
+ So the moral of the story is that both the fresh and fried version of
+ spring rolls are called Spring Rolls, though I think the term "spring
+ rolls" should imply fresh vegetable ingredients wrapped in rice paper,
+ rather than the fried pork/shrimp/cloudear types, and the others
+ should be called something else - like imperial rolls - if we';re
+ trying to standardize the terms ;-)

It makes sense to me that "spring rolls" should be veggie-based and
not fried, but... well... English often doesn't make sense, especially
when importing food/ideas from elsewhere.

  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
John Droge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vietnamese table etiquette


"Victor Sack" > wrote in message
...
> amalia > wrote:

"bun
> thit nuong, rau thom", translated as rice noodles with grilled pork and
> herbs. So far, I've tried only salad rolls, served cold. They
> contained some green vegetables and a few small prawns, wrapped in
> transparent rice paper. They were very bland, even with the dipping
> sauce and I didn't like them much.
>
> Victor

Victor
Do try the pork, Vietnamese grilled pork is wonderful. If anything is bland
to you most Vietnamese resturants have chili oil, and chili garlic sauce as
table side condiments here in the states the few I've been in that didn't
always brought out if asked.
John


  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Dy
 
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"amalia" > wrote in message
news:LCWgb.522000$Oz4.379657@rwcrnsc54...
> "Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 07:41:54 GMT, "Peter Dy" >
> > wrote:
> > I just remembered another englidh namefor the fried ones: Imperial
> > rolls (someone mentioned 'imperial-style' earlier but it didn't sink
> > in).
> >
> > >But my argument was actually this: Egg Rolls are long, super-thick

> things.
> > >They are an American creation. They are made with a large, thick,

wheat
> > >wrapper, which, when deep fried, doesn't get totally crisp -- instead,

> the
> > >outside is often leathery and has small blisters on it, and part of the
> > >wrapper on the inside is still soft and white in color. Egg Rolls are

> what
> > >I grew up eating in crappy Americanized Chinese restaurants in

Cleveland.
>
> These are also an east coast US thing, right? And people dip them in Duck
> Sauce?



I'm guessing they are/were an east coast thing, part of the chop suey & egg
foo young menu. Now that I think of it, sometimes they were crispy on the
outside, but they were always huge, and part of the wrapper on the inside
didn't get crispy.

Peter

[...]


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