On 3/11/04 11:58 AM, "Ron Anderson" > wrote:

> Ron,

It seems to me that you're on the right track for developing an "airy"
crumb. My suggestions would be:

1) increase the proportion of starter in your dough (perhaps trying as much
as 1/3 by weight of the finished dough)

2) a 24 to 48 hour cold aging cycle should take care of all of your flavor
requirements.

3) find a warmer spot for the final rise after shaping. I use a covered bus
tub in a sunny closed room.

4) possibly most important ==> be very careful not to degas/deflate the
dough during final shaping. Just ease it from the dough bucket, cut it to
size, and gently shape. You've got a lot of good "holes" working already.
Keep 'em.

5) Salt affects the "stiffness" of the dough (gram for gram) more than any
other factor. Adding a 5 or 10 grams to a 1300 to 1400 gram dough won't move
the needle on the baker's percentages... but the "feel" or perceived
hydration level will change considerably.


Not to knock you but I think Dick Adams' flow chart advice is excellent.
There's a lot of value to visually representing the process. (Dick, I am
looking for a small blackboard even now and a feng shui consultant to
position it.)

Will


>
>
> http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>> ... to get more flavor/sour in my bread. I decided to push the starter to
>> the limits.
>
> I am not sure what angle you are attempting to work here, Ron, but there
> seem to be a lot of numbers and times and times of day, not much about
> temperature, and in the end you ask:
>
> Not really working any angle, but I did assume that the reader would assume
> room temperature as it was not stated. I do appologize I know assumption it
> the mother of all foul ups. so to clarify 67 dergees whre not stated
> otherwise.
>
>> Now would some of you math wizards confirm or correct me on the
>> hydration ...
>
> It seems to me that the starter should be built to obtain high fermentation
> activity. Manipulating the starter to make the bread sour/flavorful does
> not make much sense to me. Bread that rises longer gets more sourdough
> flavors.
>
> Well it seems to me that to let the start ferment for 24 hours for most of
> the steps I did acomplish a high degree of fermentaion. It is my
> understanding that the fermentation is what creates the sour. You will
> notice the long rise of 9.5 hours in the refridgerator and 5 more at room
> temparature. Certainly qualifies, at least in my mind, as a long rise. Where
> is the documentation on the long rise theory?
>
> An easy way to determine the "hydration" is to keep track of the amount
> of water used (and salt). Then, from the weight of the final dough, the
> "hydration" can be determined by simple arithmetic. That is to say, make
> the dough so that it feels right, and figure out the "hydration", if you
> must,
> when you are done.
>
> I do not see what salt has to do with hydration. I was using what I
> believed to be bakers percentage in figuring the hydration. And was seeking
> confirmation my calculations were correct. The reason is to compare with
> other hydrations I have used. This I supose an attampt to balance the abilty
> to handle the dough and maintain a moist crumb with the hopes of those
> elusive large irregular holes.
>
> Once I worked in a research lab for a boss who was quite smart (and
> famous, eventually). To ready himself to conduct a procedure based
> on readings in the microbiological literature, he would make a sketch,
> a diagram, on a single page of notebook paper. I guess it could be
> called a flow chart though its nomenclature was unique to the discipline
> of the institution. One piece of paper could summarize the result of many
> hours of study and planning.
>
> Most recipes are not even close to flow charts, but if one is seriously
> interested in trying to succeed with a recipe, I think it is useful to
> construct
> a simple flow chart. Perhaps the information in the referenced post could
> be presented in a form more like a flow chart?
>
> If you wish to present that information in a flow chart be my guest, I have
> neither the time nor inclination to do so.
>
> Ron Anderson
>