Sounds very sensible to me.

How could advice be given to fine as soon as possible after
fermentation and get it into the bottle? Very strange and makes less
and less sense to me. Its not the way CJJ Berry did it either and he
really is the popular grandad of winemakers in the UK!

Jim

On Sep 1, 4:07 pm, wrote:
> On Sep 1, 10:02 am, jim > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Yeah I have over 30 glass demijohns and a combination of glass and
> > better bottle 5 gallon carboys.
>
> > I wonder why they aren't the recommended route in the UK? Thats the
> > way I am making wine...
>
> > Jim
>
> > On Sep 1, 1:38 pm, wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 1, 5:03 am, jim > wrote:
>
> > > > Hi Patrick, thanks for replying. I am satisfied the glass vs plastic
> > > > argument has been done to death. What I am talking about is the
> > > > seemingly huge disparity between what home winemakers (creating fruit
> > > > wines) are told to do by wineshops in the UK and elsewhere.
>
> > > > Shop owners here tell me not to bother with bulk aging but to let the
> > > > wine age and mature in bottle - avoid letting it settle out naturally,
> > > > but use finings to overcome the problems 'inherent' in plastic
> > > > containers by removing the need for longterm storage therein. This
> > > > doesn't have a financial root to me since the wines being made are not
> > > > from commercial kits, but from scratch.
>
> > > > One shop owner admitted to me that glass carboys were starting to
> > > > enjoy a bit of a renaissance in the UK as people followed Canadian
> > > > kitmakers instructions and went to secondary in glass rather than
> > > > plastic. This situation befuddled him as he couldn't see any reason
> > > > to go that route... My real question is why would this be I guess...
>
> > > > Jim
>
> > > > On Sep 1, 4:58 am, "patrick mcdonald"
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > FWIW, you can find your answers by Googling the archives, but since I have
> > > > > 10 minutes, here goes...
>
> > > > > Ageing in plastic cannot be recommended above ageing in glass due to the
> > > > > density differences between the two. Basically, glass breaks easily because
> > > > > it is a very dense structure whereas plastic less readily because it is a
> > > > > less dense structure. Thus, glass is less impervious to infiltration as
> > > > > compared to plastics. Many people can find many flaws in my allusion, but it
> > > > > does break it down to straight-forward terms.
>
> > > > > I also imagine you speak of wine kits, which is the first batch of wine I
> > > > > made. What I found particularly disconcerting was the use of potassium
> > > > > sorbate to inhibit the yeast. I found this ingredient readily identifiable
> > > > > in my kit wine and wished I hadn't used it. When I thought all those
> > > > > Christmas gifts had been dumped due to poor quality, my father produced his
> > > > > bottle some 2+ years later and I must say it was a very nice kit wine. The
> > > > > pot. sorbate was gone and it was a decent kit Cab. Sauv.I've since
> > > > > recommended that my friends starting on kits skip the pot. sorbate and bulk
> > > > > age for a period up to 6 months, believing that a juice would stabilize much
> > > > > more readily than the relatively protein-saturated goo of fresh grapes.
>
> > > > > In my opinion, the above paragraph throws doubt to the kit maker's claim (in
> > > > > the US) that kit wines be drunk within 1 year. Read carefully the
> > > > > instructions and total time to drinking in kits versus fresh grapes or juice
> > > > > and notice the disparity. Think anyone writing the instructions has a
> > > > > commercial interest in mind?
>
> > > > > Age in bulk - there is less O2 exposure per given volume of wine versus that
> > > > > in a bottle, assuming that corks "breathe". Let's PLEASE not have that
> > > > > debate again, for the 187th time!
>
> > > > > Patrick
>
> > > > > "jim" > wrote in message
>
> > > > oups.com...
>
> > > > > >I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
> > > > > > stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
> > > > > > know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
> > > > > > possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
> > > > > > to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
> > > > > > been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
> > > > > > than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
> > > > > > beneficial.
>
> > > > > > Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
> > > > > > rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
> > > > > > the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
> > > > > > maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
> > > > > > up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.
>
> > > > > > I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
> > > > > > region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
> > > > > > winemaking category). I can't help wondering:
>
> > > > > > # Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
> > > > > > is given everywhere else in the world?
>
> > > > > > # Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
> > > > > > winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
> > > > > > home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
> > > > > > attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?
>
> > > > > > # How much difference is there in the end product?
>
> > > > > > # Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
> > > > > > result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
> > > > > > vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?
>
> > > > > > I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
> > > > > > Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!
>
> > > > > > Jim
>
> > > One aspect in fining , especially with reds is dropping out a little
> > > bit of color , etc. I've made a few kits , and unless it's a kit
> > > that's supposed to finish with an appreciable amount of reidual
> > > sugar , I chuck the sorbate....don't like the taste. Keep looking for
> > > carboys (glass....doesn't breathe ) or demijohns..........they allow
> > > you to bulk age with th only attention being given is checking your
> > > traps every now and again.
>
> Don't know....for me , once it's in the bottle , it's fair game , and
> sort of disappears a little bottle at a time. On the other hand ,
> knowing that pulling the trap and thiefing a bottle out here and there
> is risky , I'm pretty much forced to leave it alone. It's also pretty
> hard to oak something that gets bottled up right after fermentation
> is done , and there's always the chance of Ml ferm starting after its
> bottled up and on the shelf......never pretty....it'll make you feel
> like a bomb disposal technician trying to get the rest of your bottles
> uncorked. I've found that the longer I can leave it sit in carboys ,
> the better it is for me.