Dick Margulis > wrote in
:

> engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>> "Dick Margulis" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think the problem is that it rises too fast and I just need to
>>>> use less yeast and get my oven pre-heated before the dough rises
>>>> too far. Does anyone
>>>> have experience with this?
>>> Yes. In addition to the two adjustments you've listed (less yeast
>>> and solid oven heat), start with cold water. If you use instant
>>> yeast (the kind you mix with the flour rather than dissolving), you
>>> can start with icewater in the summer and 60 to 70 F water in the
>>> winter. This will help slow down the fermentation and give you a
>>> little more time for flavor to develop. However, without salt you
>>> are still going to have to keep an eagle eye on the dough so it
>>> doesn't get away from you.
>>>
>>> Work it on the young side. That is, if the fermentation gets to the
>>> point that the dough collapses when you slap it, you've waited too
>>> long and you're going to have awful bread. Instead, let it start to
>>> rise and get soft, but don't let it go so far. Remember, the dough
>>> is ready when it's ready, not when the clock says it's ready.
>>>
>>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Today, I tried less yeast, 1/2 tsp disolved in room temperature
>> water,
>
> Is it winter where you are?
>
>> first
>> rise took 2.5 hours. I let it rise in the pan 55 minutes. So, less
>> yeast makes it more manageable. However even though I put it in the
>> oven before it rose fully, it still collapsed.

************************************************** ******
Dick,

Could this dough have risen too long? The salt would have extended
rise, but he doesn't have any salt. I frequently let my doughs go 45
minutes with nornal salt and get good rise, oven spring, etc. I also
don't go much over 2 hours for a normal bread in fermentation.

It strikes me that the dough could be exhausted. A first rise of 2 1/2
hours follored by a one hour final rise could be enough to kill the
dough, espeically with no salt.

Barry

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>
> What's the consistency of the dough? How are you kneading it (hand?
> machine? how long? what technique?...) It may just be that your dough
> is too underdeveloped to support itself.
>
>
>> The 4.5x8.5 pan was about 2/3 full when I
>> put the loaf in to rise, and I put it in the oven (400 degrees) when
>> the top of the loaf just rose above the edge of the pan.
>
> What's the weight of dough in that pan? Did you do the dimple test or
> just go by height?
>
>
>> Should I try more
>> flour/less water for a stiffer dough? Would adding egg whites help?
>> Less oil? Any other suggestions?
>
> Let's concentrate on technique first, formula second.
>
>>
>> I'm measuring the whole wheat flour by stirring it in the bag and
>> then sprinkling it into the measuring cup to get ~4 oz by weight per
>> cup. This is how I have read one should measure flour for white
>> bread, is it the same for whole wheat flour?
>
> Yes, although it would be preferable to use a scale and weigh your
> ingredients.
>
>> Would the fact that I am not adding sweetener (sugar/honey) as the
>> original recipe calls for be part of the problem?
>
> Not significantly.
>