engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>
> It's summer. The amount of yeast is less than 1/4 of that called for in the
> recipe (2 1/4 tsp) I was trying to slow down the yeast because it was going
> too fast without salt. Yesterday I used 1 tsp disolved in 110 degree water
> and it still went very fast.

Yeah, but what was the temp of the dough water? Recall that I suggested
you use COLD water, not room temp.

If you are using "active dry" yeast, you should mix it with a small
amount of 110 F water before starting to add flour, etc. But the larger
volume of water should be cold. If you are using "instant" yeast, you
can add the yeast, dry, to the flour and skip the 110 F water altogether.


>
>>> first rise took 2.5 hours. I let it rise in the pan 55 minutes. So, less
>>> yeast makes it more manageable. However even though I put it in the oven
>>> before it rose fully, it still collapsed.
>> What's the consistency of the dough? How are you kneading it (hand?
>> machine? how long? what technique?...) It may just be that your dough is
>> too underdeveloped to support itself.
>
>
> I kneaded 8 minutes by hand, as the original recipe called for, using the
> fold push turn method.
> I don't know how to describe the consistency of the dough - it was dough not
> batter, it was pliable after resting and stiffer after kneading. As I
> kneaded it, when I felt it was a bit sticky I would spread some flour on the
> board or the dough.

It's okay, in general, for dough to be a little tacky/sticky. With hand
kneading, most people tend to add too much flour, which creates problems.


>
> How should I be assessing the consistency of 100% whole wheat dough? What
> should I be looking for?

Because of the bran, whole wheat flour absorbs a lot more water, over a
longer period, than white flour. So a dough that starts out feeling
comfortably pliable can end up too dry. That doesn't seem to be your
problem, though.

The dough should feel sort of springy, but it won't reach the level of
elasticity that a white dough can achieve. The main thing you can
actually measure is temperature. What is the temperature of the dough
when you're done kneading? (With hand kneading, this will be very close
to the same temperature it was when you started kneading, of course.)
For a short-cycle straight dough, salt-free, you want the dough to be
very close to 78 F--certainly not above 80 F. If it's a lot cooler, you
can get a longer fermentation (better flavor), but you have to watch it
like a hawk.


>>
>>> The 4.5x8.5 pan was about 2/3 full when I put the loaf in to rise, and I
>>> put it in the oven (400 degrees) when the top of the loaf just rose above
>>> the edge of the pan.

>> What's the weight of dough in that pan? Did you do the dimple test or just
>> go by height?
>
>
> For the first rise I used the dimple test, for the second rise I went by
> height.
>

On the fermentation (first rise), did you take it on the young side as I
suggested or did you let it go to full fermentation?

Again, what was the weight of the dough in the pan?

Do you have smaller pans?

And, again, use the dimple test for the loaf, as suggested earlier, not
height in the pan.

The problem is that a salt-free dough is inherently weak and it ages
rapidly. So if you try for full height, it's guaranteed to collapse.


>
>>
>>> Should I try more flour/less water for a stiffer dough? Would adding egg
>>> whites help? Less oil? Any other suggestions?
>> Let's concentrate on technique first, formula second.
>
> I'm trying to modify a recipe that includes sugar and salt to make a bread
> without sugar and salt. From my perspective, I don't have a formula so I
> think formula is worth giving some importance to.
>
> If there are any existing recipies that use 100% whole wheat flour and no
> sugar or salt to make a loaf of bread I'd love to know about them.

I tend to like a sweeter whole wheat bread, so I don't have a formula
you would like. That's not to say others won't.

>
> My scale said my 3.5 cups weighted 15 ounces. (~4.3 oz per cup) I don't
> know if the scale is accurate or not. I don't have any standard weights to
> check it with.

That means you're doing an excellent job of fluffing the flour. For
whole wheat flour, that's a good weight.