"Rupert" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Jun 1, 9:02 pm, "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>> > Well, that's a very interesting perspective you have, Dutch. Do you
>> > think there are any reasons to doubt the argument, apart from your
>> > pitiful whingeing that you haven't managed to find any vegan food that
>> > you like?
>>
>> I not only found it unsatisfying after 18 years, as I said, it was not
>> serving my family's health either. Those are important concerns you
>> little
>> shit, not pitiful whinging.
>>
>
> When you say it wasn't serving your family's health, I'm not sure what
> situation you're describing, exactly.

Of course you don't, but when I stated clearly that I encountered health
*and* satisfaction problems with my vegetarian diet in my original message
and you chose to dismiss those concerns as "pitiful whinging". That was
rude and uncalled for.

> Is it that some of your other
> family members were financially dependent on you, and you were only
> buying them vegan food because of your ethical beliefs, and they were
> experiencing diet-related health problems? Yes, certainly, those are
> important concerns. If I were in that situation I would probably have
> consulted a dietitian. The ADA agrees that well-planned vegan diets
> (supplemented by Vitamin B12) are nutritionally adequate at all stages
> of life and have many significant health benefits. Was the only
> solution to your family members' health problems for them to start
> eating meat again? Well, that's as may be. I would want to hear what a
> qualified dietitian had to say about the matter. Anyway, you made your
> own decision about that situation (assuming that I have the situation
> right). Perhaps you decided that seeing a dietitian was too expensive
> and that you would just start eating meat again and see how that went.
> Or perhaps you decided to see a dietitian and she advised you to start
> eating meat again. I don't know. In my last post I was not really
> trying to make a comment about your individual situation, about which
> I obviously know very little. What I did was ask you for your view
> about a particular argument. I guess I confused the issue somewhat by
> making references to your "pitiful whingeing". If you want to say that
> vegan diets are likely to undermine health and that undermines the
> argument, fine, let's hear the evidence.

I was a vegetarian for 18 years, as was my wife. We worked hard to keep our
diet balanced and well-rounded, and we took supplements. Despite our best
efforts we increasingly experienced health issues, hers were even more
pronounced than mine. We consulted a dietician and doctors. The final
recommendation was to add some meat to our diets. Following this advice in
our experience was clearly the right choice. I am not saying that vegan
diets are " likely to undermine health", I am reporting that we had a very
good experience with vegetarian diets for a long time, but eventually
experienced failure to thrive. I attribute the change to our aging cells.

> Anyway, I'm sorry you feel you have to swear at me. I really don't
> think it's called for.

It was called for. You had no call to dismiss my experience as pitiful
whinging.

> There was an occasion a while back where I was
> arguing that going vegan indicates a significant level of commitment
> to reducing suffering,

You're trying to have it both ways. In one argument you say we should go
vegan because according to you it's an easy step that we can all take to
reduce suffering and now you refer to it as a significant level of
commitment. Which is it, an easy step or a significant commitment?

> and you replied that in your experience going
> vegan was no sacrifice at all and that I was a spoiled little punk.
> Now you seem to want to say that it caused significant personal
> problems for you.

Both are true, it was easy and pleasant as long as it served us well, but
our circumstance changed as years passed and ultimately it became a problem.

> If I seemed to you to be suggesting that you stopped
> being vegan for trivial reasons and that offended you, then I
> apologize. I wasn't really trying to make that suggestion, I just
> thought that your concerns about not having a tasty enough diet could
> have been overcome with a little imagination.

You overlooked the part about it effecting my health, but even if I had made
the change only for taste reasons, so what? As you have admitted, none of us
operates on a strict efficiency model, and certainly there is no clear
imperative to live by the vegan model..

> As I say, I know quite a
> few vegans and I don't know anyone who finds the diet unsatisfying.

There is an issue of denial to deal with. If a person has himself convinced
that morally he cannot justify consuming animal products, then by what means
can he rationalize complaining about his vegan diet? He is trapped by his
choice to see morality through this particular lens.

> Obviously, you may have had concerns other than taste and I didn't
> wish to suggest that any concerns you had were necessarily trivial.

I accept your apology.

>
> I would have thought it should be possible for us to get on, at least
> to the extent of discussing these issues in a reasonably civil way. I
> mean, I don't have any personal grudge against you and I'm not trying
> to offend you. If you really feel that the way I behave is so
> offensive that you can't refrain from calling me a little shit, then
> maybe we'd better just leave it. But if you think it might be possible
> for us to have a polite conversation, then say so and I'll address the
> rest of your post.

Maybe you could think twice before using phrases like "pitiful whingeing" if
you are trying to have a polite conversation. Or better yet, stop worrying
about it. This is usenet, insults are used like punctuation, just ignore
them. You are not going to change the culture of usenet.