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pearl[_1_] pearl[_1_] is offline
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Default "collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]"

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On 2 Sep 2006 11:54:16 -0700, "pearl" > wrote:
>
> ><dh@.> wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:36:17 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >>
> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:15:56 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:02:46 +0100, "pearl" > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ><dh@.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> >> >> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:13:25 +0100, brother > wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ __________
> >> >> >> >> >> From: diderot >
> >> >> >> >> >> Subject: collateral included deaths in organic rice production [faq]
> >> >> >> >> >> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:21:44 EDT
> >> >> >> >> >> Newsgroups: alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animal s,rec.food.veg
> >> >> >> >> >> Message-ID: >
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >This is seven year old uncorroborated hearsay
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> It's first hand observation from a rice farmer.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >"There is an "article" circulating on the Internet that describes how
> >> >> >> >thousands of frogs and other animals are killed in the mechanized
> >> >> >> >harvesting of grain crops. This "collateral animal deaths" story is an
> >> >> >> >elaborate hoax. The author, a "Texas organic rice farmer" is a gifted
> >> >> >> >writer, but he should use his talents elsewhere.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >The author's numbers describe a plague of frogs of biblical
> >> >> >> >proportions. However, it is questionable if he has even been on a rice
> >> >> >> >farm. The major point that our author has missed is that rice fields
> >> >> >> >are harvested dry. The irrigation water is drained, and the ground is
> >> >> >> >left to dry before the harvesters go out in the field (otherwise, they'd
> >> >> >> >sink in the mud). There just aren't that many amphibians in the field.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Those who can't survive the dried environment would already
> >> >> >> be dead,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Why would any amphibians that might be in the fields stick around
> >> >> >as the fields dry, and not go with or follow the water when drained?
> >> >>
> >> >> I feel confident the main reason is also a reason why humans
> >> >> get caught in floods: Because they don't know what's happening.
> >> >> Also frogs who are on land and tree frogs who are on rice stalks
> >> >> when the water goes out, obviously can't go with it. Even you
> >> >> should have been able to figure that one out. Then there are
> >> >> the creatures who are in deep parts of the water when the
> >> >> draining occurs, so they are trapped in puddles and pools
> >> >> afterward. And there're no doubt some who move along with the
> >> >> water when it begins to recede even though they have no clue
> >> >> what's going on, but get stopped by rocks, sticks, rice stalks,
> >> >> mounds of mud etc so they don't go all the way with it. Those
> >> >> are SOME of the reasons, and undoubtedly there are more.
> >> >
> >> >That is all really absolute nonsense. Frogs are as mobile as the
> >> >next creature. Any there could easily move on as the fields dry.
> >>
> >> How would they know what was happening? How would they
> >> know where the water went? How far would they have to travel
> >> in order to get to it? What would keep them from getting killed
> >> by predators IF they hopped along trying to get there? What
> >> would keep them from dehydrating even IF they did know where
> >> to go, tried to get there, and didn't get killed by predators?

> >
> >Hypothetical frogs are capable of anything, doncha know.

>
> Not long ago you acted like you understood there are
> frogs in rice fields, even commenting on them trying to get
> people to believe that: "Any there could easily move on as the
> fields dry." Back when you understood that there are frogs in
> rice fields, can you remember how you thought they got there?


A few might hop in from the field margins.. same as they can hop out.

> >> >> >> yes, but diderot led me to believe that most of them were
> >> >> >> tree frogs who could survive in the stalks until the harverster came
> >> >> >> along.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Where did all these frogs come from, after supposedly being
> >> >> >slaughtered year in, year out?
> >> >>
> >> >> diderot was nice enough to exchange some emails with me,
> >> >
> >> >I bet! - you're a ready sucker,
> >>
> >> LOL! That coming from someone who believes there are
> >> superior beings living in the center of the Earth is pretty
> >> damn funny.

> >
> >I've plenty of reason to believe that.

>
> Like what?


I've posted a link to a well-researched site before, just for you.

> >You dis-believe without reason.

>
> I have good reason. If it were true, I have good reason to believe
> people in general would have learned about it because research
> teams would have found the entrances, gone in, studied it, made
> videos, and made money by presenting what they learned to the
> public like they do with other things of interest.


That has happened. You and others like you ridicule everything.

> >> >and an unabashed propagandist.
> >> >
> >> >> and that was a question I asked him about. He said the water
> >> >> they use to flood the fields comes from rivers and/or creeks
> >> >> which have frogs etc living in them already. So they come from
> >> >> upstream.
> >> >
> >> >Why would they move from their established habitat? Some frogs
> >> >live near rivers or creeks, but they don't actually live -in- the water
> >> >of moving rivers and creeks, nor do they spawn in moving water.
> >> >Why don't you do a little research?
> >>
> >> I'll just ask you what you asked me: where do they come from?
> >> IF you think they don't get killed when the fields dry, but still think
> >> they "easily move on as the fields dry", they're still GONE. So again,
> >> where do you think they come from?

> >
> >I don't think that 'they' are there!

>
> But you did last week. Why did you think so last week but not
> this week, have you any idea?


I said that some might be there. Not the hundreds of thousands you claim.

> >> You can't answer that one. At "best" all you can do is hurl insults
> >> and sulk away from it.

> >
> >You haven't answered the question.

>
> Which one?


How all 'these' frogs got there in the first place. diderot lied to you.

> >> >And if his claims were true, a
> >> >seasonal wholesale slaughter of frogs would be well-documented.
> >>
> >> Who would document it? Why?

> >
> >Amphibian watchers, .. agricultural sites, .. ecological sites..

>
> So you're saying there are no cds involved with any crop production,
> and if there were it would be well documented and posted on
> agricultural and ecological sites? Or are you trying to get us to believe
> that's only true in the case of rice for some reason(s)?


Amphibians are in serious trouble, so it would be well-documented.
And yes, - if the mass carnage you'd like us to believe happens in
crop production was a fact, that too would be well-documented.

> >> >> >> If diderot exagerated, it was to make people aware of the
> >> >> >> deaths caused by rice production.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >diderot told wholesale porkies in order to try to blur the line
> >> >> >between deaths in crop production and in the livestock industry.
> >> >>
> >> >> diderot told people about cds that you "aras" obviously
> >> >> could not care less about, and in fact do NOT want people
> >> >> to be aware of. Disgusting!!!
> >> >
> >> >diderot told people lies about cds. And you swallowed it whole.
> >>
> >> Animals are killed in rice production, and you disgustingly want
> >> people to believe otherwise.

> >
> >You claim they are, and without any evidence to substantiate those
> >outlandish claims, you disgustingly want people to believe it's fact.

>
> As I said, I have seen grasshoppers etc hopping all over the
> bush hog I've mowed with. If there were frogs as well they would
> be doing the same. Rice harvesters being of different design
> would allow for less hopping on the equipmet and make for more
> going through it. I have presented pictures of frogs in rice fields:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/z5fky


"rice visitor" - one frog.

> http://tinyurl.com/gkdzo


one frog. looks like the field's been cropped..

> http://tinyurl.com/zxf82


two frogs - could be anywhere.

> http://tinyurl.com/goh3f


"Frog in the Rice". - one frog.

> This animal is even called a Rice Frog:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/jcr2v


I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
and he's sitting on a low branch.

> so is this one:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/hzl4v


I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
and that's certainly not a rice field.

> and this one:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/gh7cn


I don't see where it's called a "rice frog",
and he's sitting on a massive rock.

> This one is called a Rice Paddy Frog:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/h49cy


I don't see where it's called a "rice paddy frog",
and that's certainly not a rice field either.

> yet you absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
> now claim that there are no frogs in rice production.


No. You absurdly, stupidly and either ignorantly or dishonestly
post pictures of individual frogs- most of which are clearly not
in rice fields, in attempted support of # hundreds of thousands.

> How
> could I possibly believe your insane sounding claim that there
> are no cds in rice production or it would be well-documented
> and presented on web sites, when ALL evidence shows that
> you have amazingly somehow recently become totally ignorant
> about the existence of frogs in rice fields, or more likely you
> are being deliberately and contemptibly dishonest about this
> whole thing?


Post some proper documentation of mass slaughter of frogs
in rice production, or shut the hell up already, you stupid troll.