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Chembake Chembake is offline
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Default Unusual bread technique


>We're talking about the same things, just with different vocabularies. I
>use the word "fermentation" for each development stage. So by my way of
>describing it, it ferments in the bowl after mixing (1 1/2 hours). It
>ferments more after being punched down and kneaded again (2 hours). It
>ferments yet more when the shaped loaves rise (2 hours). It gets a very
>good oven-shoot after all that time and with all that manipulation.


>Put it this way. From the time I mix the dough until I put it into an
>oven is 5 1/2 to 6 hours. I decide by eye when to bake it


So what you really mean is true fermentation...


>I tried some today where I made the dough yesterday afternoon and left
>it in the refrigerator overnight. This afternoon, I punched it down and
>kneaded it more. Left it out of the cooler to rise again. Shaped it into
>four loaves and let it rise on canvas, covered, for two and a half
>hours. Baked it. It was a bit better in flavor, texture and crumb than
>doing it the other way. But I don't think I'd do it this way normally.
>Better, yes. Enough better to take the time and cooler space, not for
>everyday.


Well I will not do that regularly either...If I want a better flavor
for my French bread if I had some leftover French bread dough from the
previous batch I keep it under refrigeration or cold room and add 25%
of the new batch dough weight the next day.. It improves the bread
flavor significantly as well as the baking performance from dough's
made with normally 2 -3 hours bakers or bulk fermentation.
That is the practical way in doing it in large scale.



> That answers the question that Old French baker I mentioned above that
> he lamented that his countrymen does not know anymore what real bread
> is.....
> I told him all of those bread are real.....he frowned on me. And
> said...It is just that modern people specially the younger generation
> (like me) does not care about good bread anymore.....I insisted to him
> all of these bread are good...!
> Maybe for you ...as you have never undergone my training.....but for me
> ....




><G> I got the same thing when I wandered around the French and Italian
>countrysides. I stayed in little hotels and pensions away from the city
>people and city things. I liked the bread when it was about 5 hours old.
>Less than that and it wasn't "mature." More than that and it was
>starting to stale.


Yes.....the common french bread is good not later than 4-6 hours after
baking, after that its only useful for croutons....
But these country style French bread has indeed better taste when eaten
later.. or cool...
When eaten warm or freshly baked it does not taste good nor you can
appreciate its quality.



>In some ways, I agree with him. A lot of the old skills and ways have
>been lost or compromised. I think that the "Slow Food" people see things
>in that way and are trying to preserve the better ones. I've had breads
>made with starters as old as the bakers, that were cold-fermented for a
>day and a half. Wonderful. But I don't want to do that, so I have to
>settle for a compromise in some areas.


These so called long fermented dough are impractical when producing
bread for high volume situations.Unless if that is the specialty of the
particular bakery its not cost effective doing it . It justifies that
its sold at higher price if compared to common bread in many shops.

>And, I don't really want to be in a kitchen without mixers. I'd like to
>keep my dough sheeter, too, for the things it's good for (like 50
>gingerbread houses each Christmas when I had the restaurants and shops).

..

If I am in the commercial situation I expect that the particular
kitchen of baker y where I will be working should be well equipped . I
don't want my people rolling croissant and Danish pastry dough with
rolling pins. A dough brake/ sheeter is essential .
But it does not mean that I cannot do those by manual means .

>>I've baked in wood-burning ovens, and I like the control of modern ovens

>better. But each remove from the old ways makes the product change. Some
>modern changes I think are better


If I am baking industrial bread I will use the commercial oven, fired
by gas or electicity,( tunnel, rack, deck etc , but if I am doing
artisanal items I prefer the wood fired ovens...nothing can compare the
taste of bread baked that way.
I can sense the heat of the wood fired ovens by looking how the coals
look , and smoke rise in the oven ceiling as well as by exposing my
palms to the oven ambient.and can competently judge if the temperature
and degree of bake without using a timer or thermometer.

>I don't really like breads with very dark crusts and scorch marks. My
>grandparents did. The northern Italians made a thing from their villages
>halfway between a pizza and a ****aladiere, and they said it was ready
><when it had black patches on the bottom. My grandfather said it had a
>smoky (sfumato) flavor. I say it tastes like burned toast with onions on
>it. <G>



>It's all about taste, I think


You're damn right...as people become older their taste buds became
weaker and demands more flavorful foods... a smoky flavor add some sort
of nuance to the taste improved the acceptability of a baked product.

I think that is one reason why many people like to eat bread baked in
wood fired oven than from items baked with other fuel...

The rating for better bread flavor in my experience seems to be this
way
Wood fired is better than gas,... gas is better than electricity...