chembake wrote:
> I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I meant I
> didn't understand the sentence.


>You have no idea how I or my people worked. You have no idea about
>anything of my professional experience. Please save your insults.

Well everybody had its own preconception what a chef is
....unfortunately its always not good...as some of the most popular
jokes are denigrating in nature...
BTW
It is being asked in some circles ...why does the chef wears a toque...

One funny answers are .... to hide his shortness and to look tall to
other people...and also to look smart and respectable even if his
head is full of hot air..!.




> Besides What does being a food writer have to do with food safety
> rules...?


>It has only this: in order to be considered a reliable source by the
>publications I've written for, the information must be good and the
>sources must be checkable. You should read my article about "Food
>Additives" in the Oxford University Press Encyclopedia of American food
>and Drink. It's partly about food safety.

Really....
Previously I read a lot of books about food additives and food safety
but never heard your name.. I am sorry...


>Please stop trying to diminish me and my background. I don't really care
>what you think of chefs and writers. That's your opinion and appears
>only to be negative in an attempt to make yourself seem more
>knowledgeable.

Hmmnn......I still don't consider myself to be that
knowledgeable....nor I want to denigrate your status an English major
that became a food writer or science teacher who became a chef....
we are in the same boat
I am just a chemist that became a baker...then a /patissier / and
lately a confectioner



> During your formative yearsin the kitchen I doubt if such NASA
> derived food safety rules did ever came to the minds of your
> mentors....and if you absorbed the habits of your traditional
> teachers ...its unlikely that you will change instantly due to
> changing trends...in food processing rules.. I had met and seen so
> many chefs in my career ....an its often that in the old and highly
> experience chefs ,old habits are difficult to change specially
> for high ranking chefs that have egos as huge as a blimp.<grin>..


>What are your opinions about bakers with so little confidence in
>themselves that they need to try to insult others by innuendo?

Insult...?
..little confidence....? that is a presumption....
Bakers normally are not as egocentric as chefs..but we banter a
lot....there is no point being serious when we 're just overgrown
kids that want to play with the dough for a living....<grin>



>Pastries filled with cheeses and custards are what I was referring to.
>Moderate water activity and good base for bacterial action and molding
>anyway.

That sounds sensible.



>I own a commercial food processing business operated with a very careful
>and professional system. We make infused and flavored oils, seasoned and
>infused vinegars, fruit juice curds, chocolates, breads and pastries
>(filled and unfilled), hot sauces, brine mixes and seasonal products.
>I've consulted with many food scientists in the course of formulating
>these products and have gained a good understanding of what the issues
>are for all of them.

Its nice to know.....that you are notch higher than an ordinary chef of
any typical restaurant .




>I'm so happy for you that you are able to feel superior to someone. And
>I admire your style of insult.

Bob ...don't take it seriously....
Its sad to say....that Chefs lack sense of humor if compared to the
bakers......<sigh>...

>> Filled breads and pastries use other foods that can support both
>> spoilage and pathogenic bacteria and molds. I'm saying that we
>> should be careful with all of them.

> Breads in themselves have high water activity..in the vicinity of
> 0.90's



>Generally around .95

Thanks for the correction....my record starts at 0.90...as there are
certain breads that have lower water content.( low hydration)...which
is common in Asia...and also contains more of sugar in it.



> so it can still be attacked by bacteria such as the bacillus
> subtilis/mesentericus which causes rope and that is already
> considered as spoilage.... Fillings in bread are sensitive to
> spoilage, it can be meat and dairy based; and both have moderate
> to high water activity as the low to moderate amount of sugar but
> low salt and the usual absence of humectants (which binds water)
> does not decrease water activity much and therefore don't prevent
> osmophilic bacteria, molds and yeast from attacking it causing it
> to spoil....Once fermentation sets in the water activity values can
> increase due to the breakdown of food structure increasing the water
> content of the spoiled food leading to other microbes (including
> pathogen to attack it)..This chain reaction can led to a food hazards
> in many cases and people that are highly sensitive can be the first
> to fall ill. Even this so called jam fillings which can have water
> activity values IIRC of 0.60-0.70


Jams and jellies - .82 to .94

For jams and jellies
My source says the range is from 0. 60-0.85


>yes indeed....but in the bakery ...we are content about the actual Aw readings as the value of pH etc are already established....and if shelf life is the concern....how to reformulate products that will stay longer....is by means of water activity readings and Aw values...

>Establishing a system for kitchens that make sure good safety practices
>are followed means that the cooks don't really need to understand the
>complex biological, chemical and physical conditions. They just need to
>know what to do and how to do it in accordance with the appropriate
..>principles. I want cooks with sympathetic kitchen hands, not
academics.

IMO
They really need to go details so they will have a grasp of the
reaction mechanism.s.and what happened during the cookery process.
And recently .the rise of culinology as a new discipline in cookery
emphasizes that the kitchen personnel must not only be skilled in his
kitchen stuff but also think like a food scientist...



> and have to remind
> myself often....water activity is ubiquitous in the food industry


Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as
explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.


> Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
> water activity in the general food processing...


No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial
issue. But it's not the only issue


>It is. It's essentially an index about how much water is available to
>colonizing organisms. Not how much water is in the particular food, but
>how much of it isn't bound. In food science, the lower the index number
>(ranges from 0.0 [no water] to 1.00 [water]), the less water there is
>for the metabolic needs of any critters; so reduced viability for
>culturing in food products. Points to shelf life and storage
>requirements. High water activity and low pH means refrigeration.


In our particular field..(.as I stated previously..)..the pH readings
are already considered and is part of the parameters to be taken to
consideration....But the amount of available water for microbial growth
is given emphasis in long shelf storage...
Say for example a fruit cake...the baker will not measure the batter
or cake pH, but now they emphasize the water activity measurements
for such...to insure a good shelf life. .and it often works!