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Bob (this one)
 
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Default cake decorating questions

chembake wrote:

> I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I meant I
> didn't understand the sentence.
>
> Well.. . I worked in the food industry for decades and I know how
> chef's think....in my observation they are good cooks and know how to
> manage the kitchen but not competent enough to think ..in scientific
> fashion


My undergraduate degree is in English with a biological sciences minor.
I had originally started university as a pre-medical student only to
discover after a few years that while I liked and was a very good
student of sciences, moving into medicine proved to be an area that I
decided I didn't like. My background in science is good.

> .and sometimes forget to implement food safety procedures ..in their
> day to day chores.. Just think about this, after years of training,
> experience and even schooling, occasionally food poisoning still
> occurs...in their kitchen...


You have no idea how I or my people worked. You have no idea about
anything of my professional experience. Please save your insults.

>> I had my first restaurant job in the early 1950's when I was in
>> grammar school. I started my first restaurant in 1974 and have
>> owned several others since; I've run country club and resort
>> operations, and consulted about all phases of foodservice. I'm also
>> a published food writer.

>
> So with all that experience ...do you think that you are already
> qualified to talk about HACCP?


Yes. I do. I have routinely dealt with local, state and federal
inspection agencies and conformed to their standards. I and all my
employees had to go through the courses offered by all health
departments for food service operations. I've taken the Better
Processing course administered by the Food and Drug Administration and
have had my food manufacturing operations subject to their inspections.

> Besides What does being a food writer have to do with food safety
> rules...?


It has only this: in order to be considered a reliable source by the
publications I've written for, the information must be good and the
sources must be checkable. You should read my article about "Food
Additives" in the Oxford University Press Encyclopedia of American food
and Drink. It's partly about food safety.

> Food journalists who are also chefs a....IMO (and even from
> observation in some certain chefs who become writers) usually focus
> on English composition and grammar than the food safety in their
> kitchens...


Please stop trying to diminish me and my background. I don't really care
what you think of chefs and writers. That's your opinion and appears
only to be negative in an attempt to make yourself seem more
knowledgeable. A scientist waits for evidence.

> During your formative yearsin the kitchen I doubt if such NASA
> derived food safety rules did ever came to the minds of your
> mentors....and if you absorbed the habits of your traditional
> teachers ...its unlikely that you will change instantly due to
> changing trends...in food processing rules.. I had met and seen so
> many chefs in my career ....an its often that in the old and highly
> experience chefs ,old habits are difficult to change specially
> for high ranking chefs that have egos as huge as a blimp.<grin>..


What are your opinions about bakers with so little confidence in
themselves that they need to try to insult others by innuendo?

>>> Pickles are a good example of foods with high water activity that
>>> can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations of pH, water
>>> activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.

>
>> Pickes?....bakers and pastry cooks don't deal with such items.... .

>
>> Understood. But for room temp storage, it's not just water activity
>> that matters, even for pastry.

>
> Pastry?....yes they had lower moisture content and so have lower
> water activity values compared to cakes and bread due to the high
> amount of fat but they are still susceptible to spoilage..for example
> ...the .pastry casing is for meat pie but even when baked it does
> not prevent it from getting spoiled ...Meat filling juices may seep
> into the casings cracks and crevices increasing the moisture
> content and hence the water activity....
>
>
>> Cheeses and eggs provide opportunity for bacterial and mold
>> growths, for example.
>>

> Cheese and eggs used in general cookery usually results in moderate
> to high water activity in the finished products , aside from the fact
> that they provide an active culture media for microbes .... because
> of that pathogens can live and multiply in them.... compromising
> food safety of the finished food item.


Pastries filled with cheeses and custards are what I was referring to.
Moderate water activity and good base for bacterial action and molding
anyway.

>> Fruit curd fillings generally have a reasonably low water activity
>> and low pH, but molds can grow on them rather quickly.

>
> Well molds can exist with slightly lower water activity than
> bacteria and so is the fruit curd and fillings which have moderate
> Aw( water activity) values which are highly subject to mold and
> yeast fermentation ( which incidentally like to live in moderate
> water activity). Bacteria lives and multiplies in higher water
> activity values ...but when bacteria weakens or dies due to the
> lowering of water activity...the molds,fungi and yeasts takes its
> place....actively. .
>
>> Normally bakers don't add any preservatives in cake icings nor have
>> to use most of the time high processing temperatures..(for example
>> in boiled icings) Its common for these tradesmen to make icings at
>> room temperatures... In addition to that pH is not an issue with
>> cake frosting materials either

>
>> I agree with all these clarifications, but the simple rule of just
>> being concerned with water activity is misleading.

>
> It only means one thing. IMO... I am sorry to say that you don't have
> a deep understanding with water activity, and its importance in food
> processing.


I own a commercial food processing business operated with a very careful
and professional system. We make infused and flavored oils, seasoned and
infused vinegars, fruit juice curds, chocolates, breads and pastries
(filled and unfilled), hot sauces, brine mixes and seasonal products.
I've consulted with many food scientists in the course of formulating
these products and have gained a good understanding of what the issues
are for all of them.

> .Anyway .Its not surprising as its pretty common with many highly
> qualified chefs...and most of them scoffed at them including some
> cookery school instructors <grin>.who don't follow what they preach
> to their cookery students in the culinary school. ...just a few
> years ago....I met a well known chef who scoffed at water activity
> and related terminology and became complacent (in the his cookery
> methodologies that pertain to food safety) in his kitchen
> Incidentally his HACCP program was found to be faulty. by the food
> safety auditor /inspector and was never modified after continuous
> warning... from other inspectors who visited his kitchen in the
> past. ...He scornfully told the inspector... I had been running this
> restaurant for more than three decades and still I never did have
> any serious food related incident that led my restaurants closure...
> Further He sneered at them and said.....Stick your water activity
> (and stringent food safety rules ) into your arse ! A few months
> later his kitchen and restaurant were shut down due to a large
> number of people who were hospitalized from salmonella
> poisoning...from contaminated food eaten during a banquet in his
> restaurant......
>
> I had seen a number of restaurant in many places that succumb to this
> kind of complacency with disastrous results to their restaurants,
> and their reputation.


I'm so happy for you that you are able to feel superior to someone. And
I admire your style of insult.

>> Filled breads and pastries use other foods that can support both
>> spoilage and pathogenic bacteria and molds. I'm saying that we
>> should be careful with all of them.

>
> Breads in themselves have high water activity..in the vicinity of
> 0.90's


Generally around .95

Cakes - .9 to .94
icing - .76 to .79

> so it can still be attacked by bacteria such as the bacillus
> subtilis/mesentericus which causes rope and that is already
> considered as spoilage.... Fillings in bread are sensitive to
> spoilage, it can be meat and dairy based; and both have moderate
> to high water activity as the low to moderate amount of sugar but
> low salt and the usual absence of humectants (which binds water)
> does not decrease water activity much and therefore don't prevent
> osmophilic bacteria, molds and yeast from attacking it causing it
> to spoil....Once fermentation sets in the water activity values can
> increase due to the breakdown of food structure increasing the water
> content of the spoiled food leading to other microbes (including
> pathogen to attack it)..This chain reaction can led to a food hazards
> in many cases and people that are highly sensitive can be the first
> to fall ill. Even this so called jam fillings which can have water
> activity values IIRC of 0.60-0.70


Jams and jellies - .82 to .94

> is still not immune to these hardy
> organism....And certain people that are allergic to certain mold
> toxins are the first to succumb to it. Even your pickles with higher
> water activity can still be attacked by halophilic (salt loving)
> bacteria ....However as of now I have not heard of any body that is
> allergic to these salt loving bacteria (or I may not be aware of it
> happening elsewhere). The fermentation by-products can make food
> unpalatable....and a spoiled pickle can then taste awful... Many
> kitchen personnels may find these water activity Aw, equilibrium
> relative humidity (ERH ) terminology as too academic ..and useless
> in practical situation but they are wrong! ..


I appreciate your offering all this information in support of my
original position that water activity alone isn't the only concern for
food safety. That maintaining food safety requires a more sophisticated
view.

Establishing a system for kitchens that make sure good safety practices
are followed means that the cooks don't really need to understand the
complex biological, chemical and physical conditions. They just need to
know what to do and how to do it in accordance with the appropriate
principles. I want cooks with sympathetic kitchen hands, not academics.

> I had been in the food processing industry for decades and although
> in baking, patisserie and confectionery are my field....I still
> exercise care when preparing food for institutions


Of course. There is no other way.

> and have to remind
> myself often....water activity is ubiquitous in the food industry


Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as
explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.

> Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
> water activity in the general food processing...


No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial
issue. But it's not the only issue.

Pastorio