usual suspect wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> I'm fully aware of doctrinal distinctions between Romanist and
> Protestant bodies

Glorfindel wrote:

Not Romanist specifically, but one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

> I know that your church hates doctrines like
> election and predestination, but they're in the Bible

They're in Calvin's interpretation. You can claim almost
anything's "in the Bible" if you tweak the texts to your
taste.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> You don't understand catholic doctrine.

Ipse dixit.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> What about your views on homosexual marriage
> is in keeping with catholic doctrine?

They are in keeping with the U.S. tradition of separation of
church and state. Civil marriage should be open to *** couples;
liturgical marriage is up to the denomination involved.

> What about your views on abortion
> are in keeping with catholic doctrine?

The catholic church has traditionally held that the fetus
is not ensouled until it quickens ( about the fourth
month).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>> We are not "utterly depraved" in the Calvinist model.

> It isn't the "Calvinist model," it's the Bible:

No, it's not. It's Calvin's weird, self-loathing opinion,
and an insult to the God Who created us.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>> We cannot fulfill God's will *perfectly*
>> (being human and fallible) but we can fulfill God's will and His
>> law in part, with God as our helper.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> It's for our benefit and welfare.

>> No, Creation exists for God's glory. It is not for our benefit.

> God did not put us here to engage in
> extreme austerity.

Respecting our obligations of stewardship is not "extreme austerity".

> He made us in his image and gave us dominion.

Yes indeed -- He made us in His image, with the self-emptying,
self-sacrificing, merciful example of Christ's death for
His lesser creatures as our template, and the dominion of
the Good Shepherd who gives His *life* for the sheep, who
sacrifices his own welfare, and suffers for his flock, as the
model for our life. Christ was the self-sacrifice, the
suffering servant, Who gave up His own welfare for the welfare
of others. Yes -- I'll agree we are made in God's image, and
intended to follow Christ's example of dominion as self-giving, and
self-sacrifice. That means we advance the welfare of others, we
don't use them for our benefit and welfare. God forbid -- in
fact He does.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> So why bother with environmentalism?

> I said "most likely," and you confirmed as much by suggesting below that
> leftist ideology is inherently better for the environment.

Not inherently.

>>> as if socialism and communism have good track records for air, water,
>>> or people.

>> It depends on where, and what version, especially of socialism. A
>> number of socialist countries have better records on the environment
>> and social justice than the United States, which has a generally dismal
>> record under the last few Republican administrations,

> Ipse dixit and false. It was the "last few Republican administrations"
> that signed off on tightening both the Clean Water Act (Nixon) and Clean
> Air Act (Bush 41). Air and water quality has also continued to improve
> over the last 20 years.

What nonsense. These last few administrations, especially George
Bush's, are removing protections for the environment, gutting
the Endangered Species Act, removing controls on pollution,
refusing to sign the Kyoto agreement, or even recognize the threat
of global warming and our major contributions to it. There is
not a single mainstream environmental organization or animal
welfare organization which does not regard Bush and his land-raping
buddies as an unmitigated disaster for everybody except his rich
campaign contributers. Even the radical right ideologues who
thought he was one of them see now that he's out for nothing but
money and power. Or rather his handlers are. He's too stupid
to run a model railroad by himself.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>> I don't think we need to embrace radical leftist ideology to have
>>> clean air and water.

>> Possibly, but it certainly helps.

> Ipse dixit, and the track records of the Left around the world don't
> suggest that it would help at all.

Oh, you're wrong there. The socialist countries in Europe
have been outstanding models for environmental protection
and social justice. They are the ones leading in laws against
factory farming methods.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>> While you're at it, maybe you can explain why you call yourself a
>>> "vegan":

>> Because I am.

> No, you ate chiles relleno in the last couple years.

No, I did not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>