Karen Winter wrote:
>>>>> No animal should be bred so that he is *incapable*
>>>>> of carrying out normal biological functions for his species,
>>>>> such as reproduction.
>
>>>> Why not?
>
>>> If it isn't obvious to you, I am sorry for you.
>
>> You can't answer the question.
>
> I can answer the question,

You haven't yet.

> but your basic moral priorities are
> so different from those of normal people that the answer
> probably won't make sense to you.

How are my views out of step with the mainstream?

> Animals are not ours.

Ipse dixit.

> First, they are created by God ( or Nature)
> to be what they are and to fill a particular ecological niche.

Let's see what God says about them.

Jesus helped fishermen:
When he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, "Put out into
deep water, and let down the nets for a catch."

Simon answered, "Master, we've worked hard all night and haven't
caught anything. But because you say so, I will let down the
nets."

When they had done so, they caught such a large number of fish
that their nets began to break. So they signaled their partners
in the other boat to come and help them, and they came and
filled both boats so full that they began to sink.

When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus' knees and said, "Go
away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!" For he and all his
companions were astonished at the catch of fish they had
taken...
Luke 5:4-9 (cp. John 21 for similar post-resurrection account)

He fed fish to hungry followers:
Jesus called his disciples to him and said, "I have compassion
for these people; they have already been with me three days and
have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or
they may collapse on the way."

His disciples answered, "Where could we get enough bread in this
remote place to feed such a crowd?"

"How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked.

"Seven," they replied, "and a few small fish."

He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. Then he took the
seven loaves and the fish, and when he had given thanks, he
broke them and gave them to the disciples, and they in turn to
the people. They all ate and were satisfied. Afterward the
disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were
left over.
-- Mathew 15:32-37

He ate fish himself:
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And
while they still did not believe it because of joy and
amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"
They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate
it in their presence.
-- Luke 24:40-43

Christ's disciples weren't ARAs, they were fishermen. Christ went out to
fish with them. He told them where and when to find fish. He fed fish to
others. He ate fish himself.

Consider the Passover seder:
On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was
customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked
him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you
to eat the Passover?"

So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the
city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow
him. Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks:
Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my
disciples?' He will show you a large upper room, furnished and
ready. Make preparations for us there."

The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as
Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
-- Mark 14:12-16

Did Jesus forbid the killing and eating the lamb? No, he and his
disciples partook in the custom of killing and eating a lamb on Pesach.

Jesus also commanded animal sacrifices:
A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If
you are willing, you can make me clean."

Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched
the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the
leprosy left him and he was cured.

Jesus sent him away at once with a strong warning: "See that you
don't tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest
and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your
cleansing, as a testimony to them."
Mark 1:40-44

Mary and Joseph offered animal sacrifices upon the birth of Jesus.

Jesus was NOT vegetarian, nor did he do anything consistent with the
animal rights or "vegan" position.

Furthermore, the OT is filled with examples of meat-eating and animal
sacrifices. Cain and Esau are described as hunters. The OT laws
prescribe methods of slaughter, rules for how meat should and shouldn't
be prepared, etc.

Jesus said it's not what goes into a man's mouth that makes him unclean,
but what comes out of it (Matthew 15). Matthew wrote that Jesus offended
the Pharisees when he said that; it still offends people like you who
think people are ethical, virtuous, etc., on the basis of following
rules nearly 2000 years later.

St Paul also addressed the issue by writing that Christians should not
judge one another over diet, particularly over the consumption of meat;
he also wrote (1 Timothy 4) that the commmand to abstain from certain
foods (which includes meat) is a doctrine of devils. Yet you judge
people according to what they eat and command (or at least request)
others abstain from certain foods to be more ethical, holy, etc.

There is *NO* Biblical case for vegetarianism. Vegetarianism --
particularly the AR/vegan zealotry kind you seek to infect the world
through proselytization -- is antithetical to the Bible.

> We cannot create them;

Some scientists are trying to. Indeed, we create hybrids of everything
else. Why not animals?

> we can only warp them out of their natural
> state in ways which -- in the case of these turkeys at least --
> frustrate every ability required for them to survive as they
> were intended to do.

They're not released into the wild. They're grown for meat, not for
bigger turkey dicks.

> We have taken God's creatures and mutilated
> and deformed them.

No, we've adapted them to our tastes.

> Animals are not ours.

Tautology: you said this above.

> As individual beings under God, just like
> humans, they belong to themselves.

Not according to God. See above. If you invoke God, I will go to see
what God reportedly says.

> Their lives and their selves
> are their own.

Not according to God. See above. So long as you invoke God, I will go to
see what God reportedly says about the issue.

> They have inherent value in themselves; they have
> consciousness and awareness, the ability to feel and suffer and
> enjoy their little lives. They are individuals, as we are, and
> we have a moral obligation to respect that basic individuality by
> treating them as beings with basic moral status, not just as things.
> We do not have a right, as God's stewards only, to do anything we
> want to others. We do not have a right, as moral beings, to create
> suffering and deformity for our trivial convenience.

Not according to God. See above. If you continue to invoke God, I will
continue to show you what God reportedly says about the issue.

> But, as I said, this will probably make no sense to you.

You've still not made a case for why an animal shouldn't even be bred if
it can't reproduce. What's your position on mules? Should they be
outlawed simply because they're sterile (turkeys in the above discussion
*aren't* sterile) hybrids?

> For which, I pity you.

Probably as much as I pity you, Karen, so that makes us even. Now try to
make a case for why turkeys and mules shouldn't be bred, and lay off the
emotive crap about "their little lives" and their "basic individuality"
and try to leave God out of it (because you can't pull the wool -- or
some vegan-approved synthetic -- over my eyes on that one).