Thanks for the links BR,
I could've googled about, but I find there are excellent link
resources provided in this group.
It's quite a bad situation. With all the info so readily available on
eating healthy, it's a tragic shame so many amongst us choose to be
animal-fat guzzling baboons [ no disrespect to the primates], and
teach their kids to opt for chemically enhanced tastes of foods rather
than vegetarian richness. Well, as much as I can I hint off-handedly
with nutritional blah-blah to my acquaintances one doesn't need meat
in their diet at all; and in some cases it works! I'll now add they
should opt for organic honey over non-organic sugars, and buttress up
the bee population/industry, as well as encourage vigorous vigilence
on their survival-hopefully.

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:12:28 GMT, Beach Runner > wrote:

>
>A
>Joe wrote:
>> Would be sincerely interested in your best links to that fact about
>> decline in bee numbers--I heard that somewhere too.
>>
>
>A quick google search found National Geographic's
>
>http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...honeybees.html
>
>others are
>http://www.pulseplanet.com/archive/Oct04/3287.html
>
>West Virginia Agricultural
>http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/ipm/inse...t/contbees.htm
>
>NAS
>http://www4.nas.edu/webcr.nsf/Commit...A?OpenDocument
>
>Should be clear it's a real problem.
>> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 23:48:24 GMT, Beach Runner > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Joe wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi... not being critical of your statement and I agree with most of
>>>>what you commented on, but regarding bees, aren't many more-times more
>>>>bees being given a chance at living a somewhat 'natural' life [in
>>>>terms of free roaming/flying] by the existence of the industry [yes,
>>>>I'm aware of the distress/deaths caused by the bee-handling methods]?
>>>>Please, no venemous 'Usual Suspect' like responses to my remark-it's
>>>>just my opinion.
>>>>Also, one thing regarding the sweetener link... I was hoping to see
>>>>more of what ingredients and nutrients/amounts are actually in their
>>>>products and not just what's not in them. In the dialogue it says
>>>>'lacks refined sugars'-does that mean totally or to some degree?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>You could write to Michael Gregor.
>>>
>>>BTW, there's a declining population of honey bees in this nation from
>>>all the use of pesticides.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:13:52 GMT, Beach Runner > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Why Honey Is Vegan
>>>>>By Michael Greger
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html
>>>>>
>>>>>All the Buzz Without the Bee
>>>>>
>>>>>What looks like honey, feels like honey, and tastes like honey?
>>>>>Suzannes Specialities Just Like Honey Rice Nectar is just like
>>>>>honey except for one thing€”it is bee-free. Thats right. This vegan
>>>>>€œhoney€� simply astounded the Satya staff. Putting bees out of
>>>>>business, this sweetener made from brown rice, chicory, and maple
>>>>>syrups, reigns as the new taste of vegan.
>>>>>
>>>>>Gluten-free and GMO-free, this nectar is the perfect topping for
>>>>>pancakes, waffles and oatmeal, and a delightful addition to tea. In
>>>>>fact, long- time vegan, Roshni Koshy exclaimed that while shes
>>>>>typically a coffee drinker, shes going to switch to drinking tea
>>>>>just to flavor it with Just Like Honey. It lacks refined sugars and
>>>>>is still better than any other sweetener. Winnie the Pooh wouldnt be
>>>>>able to tell the difference and neither will you. Order online at
>>>>>www.suzannes-specialties.com. €”S.I.
>>>>>Honey hurts more than just bees. It hurts egg-laying hens, crammed in
>>>>>battery cages so small they cant spread their wings. It hurts mother
>>>>>pigs, languishing for months in steel crates so narrow they cant
>>>>>turn around. And the billions of aquatic animals who, pulled from
>>>>>filthy aquaculture farms, suffocate to death. All because honey hurts
>>>>>our movement.
>>>>>
>>>>>Its happened to me over and over. Someone will ask me why Im
>>>>>vegan€”it could be a new friend, co-worker, distant family, or a
>>>>>complete stranger. I know I then have but a tiny window of
>>>>>opportunity to indelibly convey their first impression of veganism.
>>>>>Im either going to open that window for that person, breezing in
>>>>>fresh ideas and sunlight, or slam it shut as the blinds fall. So I
>>>>>talk to them of mercy. Of the cats and dogs with whom theyve shared
>>>>>their lives. Of birds with a half piece of papers worth of space in
>>>>>which to live and die. Of animals sometimes literally suffering to
>>>>>death. I used to eat meat too, I tell them. Lots of meat. And I never
>>>>>knew either.
>>>>>
>>>>>Slowly but surely the horror dawns on them. You start to see them
>>>>>struggling internally. How can they pet their dog with one hand and
>>>>>stab a piece of pig with the other? They love animals, but they eat
>>>>>animals. Then, just when their conscience seems to be winning out,
>>>>>they learn that we dont eat honey. And you can see the conflict
>>>>>drain away with an almost visible sigh. They finally think they
>>>>>understand what this whole €œvegan€� thing is all about. Youre not
>>>>>vegan because youre trying to be kind or compassionate€”youre just
>>>>>crazy! They smile. They point. You almost had me going for a second,
>>>>>they chuckle. Whew, that was a close one. They almost had to
>>>>>seriously think about the issues. They may have just been considering
>>>>>boycotting eggs, arguably the most concentrated form of animal
>>>>>cruelty, and then the thought hits them that youre standing up for
>>>>>insect rights. Maybe they imagine us putting out little thimble-sized
>>>>>bowls of food for the cockroaches every night.
>>>>>
>>>>>Im afraid that our public avoidance of honey is hurting us as a
>>>>>movement. A certain number of bees are undeniably killed by honey
>>>>>production, but far more insects are killed, for example, in sugar
>>>>>production. And if we really cared about bugs we would never again
>>>>>eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasnt strictly
>>>>>organically grown€”after all, killing bugs is what pesticides do best.
>>>>>And organic production uses pesticides too (albeit €œnatural€�).
>>>>>Researchers measure up to approximately 10,000 bugs per square foot
>>>>>of soil€”thats over 400 million per acre, 250 trillion per square
>>>>>mile. Even €œveganically€� grown produce involves the deaths of
>>>>>countless bugs in lost habitat, tilling, harvesting and
>>>>>transportation. We probably kill more bugs driving to the grocery
>>>>>store to get some honey-sweetened product than are killed in the
>>>>>products production.
>>>>>
>>>>>Our position on honey therefore just doesnt make any sense, and I
>>>>>think the general population knows this on an intuitive level.
>>>>>Veganism for them, then, becomes more about some quasi-religious
>>>>>personal purity, rather than about stopping animal abuse. No wonder
>>>>>veganism can seem nonsensical to the average person. We have this
>>>>>kind of magical thinking; we feel good about ourselves as if were
>>>>>actually helping the animals obsessing about where some trace
>>>>>ingredient comes from, when in fact it may have the opposite effect.
>>>>>We may be hurting animals by making veganism seem more like petty
>>>>>dogmatic self-flagellation.
>>>>>
>>>>>In my eyes, if we choose to avoid honey, fine. Lets just not make a
>>>>>huge production of it and force everybody to do the same if they want
>>>>>to join the club.
>>>>>
>>>>>Michael Greger, M.D. is a physician, vegan nutrition specialist, and
>>>>>author of Carbophobia! The Scary Truth About Americas Low-Carb Craze
>>>>>(Lantern). For more on the honey question, see Vegan Outreachs Vegan
>>>>>Starter Pack Q&A at http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>