>>
>> OK, think of it this way. The ONLY way to even come close to causing,
>> or
>> contributing to, animal deaths is this: To live in the wilds somewhere,
>> no
>> fire (possible forest fire), no electronics, liqueur, cigarettes, bug
>> spray,
>> ad infinitum. The only thing you could eat would be some leaves, nuts,
>> berries etc., but not too much, animals compete for those same resources.
>> Maybe you could eat carrion, if you really wanted to.
>>
>> Obviously, that is not feasible, as well as being pretty damn silly. So
>> your choice becomes: an industry that kills 1000s of animals per acre to
>> feed the minority, or an industry that kills dozens (tops) per acre for
>> the
>> majority?
>>
>
> I would like to know where you got those figures from, especially
> bearing in mind that most animal food production requires additional
> plant food production.

From the current thread, discussing number of voles/mice per acre and the
number of cattle per acre, though I guess you can fit more chickens per acre
than cows. And cattle require NO addition feed other than pasture in many
cases. ALL large scale food plant farms use something detrimental to animal
welfare, from fertilizers to *icides to the machinery required to plant,
tend and harvest.

>
>> Now, you next main problem with the "suffering", vegan side or meat eater
>> side. You have no way to prove that all, or even a majority, of
>> livestock,
>> suffer at all.
>
> Yes, I do.

OK, lets hear it.

>
>> By the same token, meat eaters use figures skewed or spun to
>> make their side look better. Terms like "up to" and "as many as". No
>> problem at all, the choice is an individuals to make. Preaching only
>> makes
>> people dig their heels in.
>>
>> You must admit crop production causes death and suffering, as any meat
>> eater
>> will tell you some animals suffer because of their decisions. There is
>> no
>> way to avoid it, from either side.
>>
>
> Yes, but I think I have reason to believe a vegan diet minimizes the
> contribution to suffering.

And I have reason to think it doesn't. Just removes it from your sight.

>
>> I have no problem with the "health vegan", that uses the diet for
>> supposed
>> health benefits, they usually aren't preachy. It is the hippie vegans
>> that
>> act like Jahova Witnesses and try to convert you using half the facts,
>> and
>> half of those wrong, that make my ass pucker.

Aren't you going to claim you aren't preaching?