rick wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> >
> > rick wrote:
> >> "Rupert" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > rick wrote:
> >> >> Dutch, ruperts message didn't show up on my server, so I'll
> >> >> piggy-back on yours...
> >> >>
> >> >> "Dutch" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Rupert" > wrote
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Dutch wrote:
> >> >> >>> > wrote
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> [..]
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> > I think you'll find "factory-farming" usually refers
> >> >> >>> > to
> >> >> >>> > the
> >> >> >>> > intensive
> >> >> >>> > rearing of animals. Have you got a justification for
> >> >> >>> > calling
> >> >> >>> > mono-culture crop production "factory-farming"?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Don't like people turning your pet pjoratives back on
> >> >> >>> you
> >> >> >>> eh?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Well, "factory-farming" is a simple descriptive term.
> >> >> ========================
> >> >> Yes, it is, and as I explained, far more descriptive of
> >> >> crop
> >> >> farming....
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Well, I wasn't very convinced by what you said.
> >> ====================
> >> Only because you're brainwashing has your mind closed. Try to
> >> reute what you have been told, don't just say nah, nah, nah,
> >> killer.
> >>
> >
> > Well, the only fact you provided was that beef cattle start out
> > on
> > pasture. I asked for a reference on this.
> ===========
> Really? I didn't see any such request. Try USDA fool...
> "...All cattle start out eating grass; three-fourths of them are
> "finished" (grown to maturity) in feedlots..."
> http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets...able/index.asp
>
>
> But, however that may be, it
> > hardly proves your case. To prove your case, you would need to
> > examine
> > the details of crop production and intensive rearing of animals
> > and
> > compare them, and demonstrate that the former deserved the
> > label
> > "factory farming" more than the latter. You didn't do this.
> ========================
> You already claimed to have done that research. You provide your
> data, killer.
> see below...
>

No, I didn't. I claimed to have read some information about intensive
rearing of animals. "Factory-farming" sounds like a pretty reasonable
description to me. I don't need to point you to all the descriptions of
it in the literature. You claimed crop production was more deserving of
the title "factory-farming". Fine. The onus is on you to prove it.

>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It carries much more baggage than that.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> It doesn't matter
> >> >> >> very much what it actually refers to, I was just
> >> >> >> surprised
> >> >> >> that he
> >> >> >> thought this was a correct application of the word.
> >> >> ==================
> >> >> It's very correct, unless of course you have an agenda to
> >> >> promote
> >> >> that doesn't have anything to do with reality, eh killer?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Well, feel free to support your case.
> >> ================
> >> LOL I already did, fool. You have yet to support your
> >> contentions. vegans never do, and never will, because all you
> >> have is a simple rule for your simple minds....
> >>
> >
> > You made an attempt to support your case, but I wasn't that
> > impressed
> > with it so far. I have provided arguments for my contentions.
> > If you
> > want to address them, go ahead.
> ====================
> No, you haven't. You've spewed vegan propaganda without any
> data. Show your proof, fool. Aterall, you claimed to have done
> all the research.
>

I have pointed out that intensively reared animals suffer considerably.
I have pointed out that most animal food production requires more plant
production than plant food production. And I have linked to an article
which discusses Davis' ruminant-pasture model of food production, and
compares it to a vegan model.

If you feel there's a contention I've made which isn't adequately
supported by all of this, tell me what it is.

>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I realize that, because you don't fancy yourself as
> >> >> > supporting
> >> >> > "factory farming".
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Vegans typically have idealized views of themselves.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Anyway, I intended (correctly or otherwise) to use the
> >> >> >> word
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> refer to
> >> >> >> intensive rearing of animals. Furthermore this clearly
> >> >> >> involves a lot
> >> >> >> more suffering than what he was referring to.
> >> >> ===========================
> >> >> LOL More suffering that slicing, dicing, shredding and
> >> >> having
> >> >> your guts rotted out?
> >> >
> >> > Yes.
> >> ================
> >> Show it then, fool.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I believe that being confined for most of your life in cages or
> > stalls
> > that are too narrow for you to turn around, and being subject
> > to
> > unanaesthetized branding, dehorning, debeaking, castration, and
> > tail
> > docking,
> =====================
> You haven't proven that all animals "suffer" in these ways,
> killer. It has been proven though that your crops kill massive
> numbers of animals in very brutal, very inhumane ways.
>

It's also been proven that factory-farmed animals live lives with a
great deal of misery and suffering in them, more suffering than would
be involved in being killed by a combine harvester, or even a more
protacted death from chemicals.

> cause more suffering than being killed in a relatively short
> > time by a combine harvester.
> ==============================
> LOL Forget all those chemical applications already, killer?
> Tell us how having your guts turn to mush over several days is a
> "humane" way to die...
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >> >
> >> >> You must be totally brainwashed, eh fool?
> >> >> Do some meat animals 'suffer?' I'm sure that some probably
> >> >> do,
> >> >> according to your definition. But they are not "ALL" meat
> >> >> animals, fool.
> >> >
> >> > Just the great majority of them.
> >> ==================
> >> Then why the complete ban on all meats, killer? Your veggies
> >> kill far more animals than the meats I eat.
> >>
> >
> > What complete ban on all meats?
> =================
> Then you do eat some meats, eh?

No.

> Again, you have failed to answer
> the question. Why the complete ban/avoidance/whatever you want
> to call it, of ALL meats?
>

You're asking me why I don't eat meat? I don't particularly want to,
and I don't see any reason why I should.

>
> >
> > Do you have some evidence that the production of the meat you
> > eat
> > causes fewer deaths than the production of vegetables?
> > ==========================
> SUre, come on down and see them. You can even pet them if you
> like. They are pasture raised, no hormones, no antibiotics, no
> feed crops. They are not confined, though they do have a
> 3-sided barn for shelter when they want. The chickens next door
> run freely through our back yard, and again, then do have a coop,
> but are left to roam on their own.
> The beef I eat from these animals replaces 100s of 1000s o
> calories that YOU get from mono-culture factory farming. I count
> the number of animals daths for my meat by 100s of meals per
> death. You're lucky if you an say 100s of deaths per meal.
>

I would be interested to know where you got that last figure from.

Pasture forage production does involve the deaths of some animals. You
would have to take those into account as well. There is some discussion
of the issue in the article I linked to.

But sure, maybe you are in a position where you can ethically eat some
meat. Fine. More power to you.

>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Does it? How do you know? How much animal death and
> >> >> > suffering
> >> >> > results from cultivation, planting, spraying, harvesting,
> >> >> > storage protection, etc, etc..
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>> > Anyway, it's all very well to abuse me for supporting
> >> >> >>> > these
> >> >> >>> > practices,
> >> >> >>> > but you don't offer any serious alternative to doing
> >> >> >>> > so.
> >> >> >>> > If
> >> >> >>> > you had a
> >> >> >>> > serious proposal for my further reducing the
> >> >> >>> > contribution I
> >> >> >>> > make to
> >> >> >>> > animal suffering then I would consider it.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> Stop supporting commercial agriculture, it kills
> >> >> >>> countless
> >> >> >>> billions
> >> >> >>> of animals. Anyway, it's you who proposed that killing
> >> >> >>> animals is
> >> >> >>> to be avoided, why should we now determine for you how
> >> >> >>> you
> >> >> >>> are going to live up to it? Do your own homework.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I'm sorry, can you quote me as saying that buying
> >> >> >> products
> >> >> >> whose
> >> >> >> production involved the death of animals is absolutely
> >> >> >> prohibited? I
> >> >> >> don't think you can.
> >> >> ==================
> >> >> Then why the ignorant prohibition on buying meat?
> >> >> Obviouly
> >> >> it
> >> >> really has NOTHING to do with animal death and suffering,
> >> >> then,
> >> >> eh killer?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > I believe that the most practical way to minimize one's
> >> > contribution to
> >> > animal suffering is to be vegan.
> >> ====================
> >> A contention that you have never proen, or even tried to
> >> support
> >> with any data.
> >>
> >
> > I have pointed out that veganism avoids support of intensive
> > rearing of
> > animals, I have pointed out that animal food production
> > requires more
> > plant production than plant food production,
> ============================
> No, you have repeated a vegan ly. There is NO requirment to grow
> crops for animals, fool. None.
>

Most animals do require crops to be grown to feed them, and most animal
food production does require more plant production than plant food
production. There are exceptions.

>
> and I have linked to an
> > article that discusses Davis' model of ruminant-pasture food
> > production
> > and compares it with a vegan model. You, on the other hand,
> > have never
> > supported your contention that it is possible to cause less
> > suffering
> > than that caused by a vegan diet by eating some meat. You might
> > be
> > right in this, but you have never proven it, or even tried to
> > support
> > it with any data.
> =========================
> Yes, I have killer. Many times, and long before you arrived.
> But then, you should know that, since afterall, you did all that
> research, right killer?
>

You really are quite bizarre. You think that somehow my claim to have
made an informed decision to become vegan entails that I should have
gone through all the Usenet archives to find out what arguments you
have offered in the past? If you want to convince me, just present me
with the arguments.

>
>
> >
> >>
> >> Perhaps there are also some ways of
> >> > doing this that involve buying some meat. I'm interested to
> >> > hear any
> >> > evidence you have about this matter.
> >> ===============
> >> No you aren't. You'e a closed-minded fool that makes claims
> >> that
> >> you cannot support.
> >>
> >
> > Um, yeah. Really intelligent. Really cogent argument. Keep up
> > the good
> > work.
> =================
> Kinda sounded like you, didn't it? Where's your proof, fool?
>

No, it didn't really sound much like me. I'm not that hostile and
insulting, and I also usually only make claims that I can support by
argument.

Where's my proof of what?

>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I see, so it's fine to cause death and suffering of
> >> >> > animals
> >> >> > when it fits conveniently into your chosen lifestyle but
> >> >> > not
> >> >> > when it fits into mine.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> What I do think is that we should make every
> >> >> >> reasonable effort to minimize our contribution to the
> >> >> >> suffering of
> >> >> >> animals.
> >> >> ====================
> >> >> Then why are you posting to usenet, killer?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > It's not clear to me that posting to usenet contributes to
> >> > the
> >> > suffering of animals.
> >> =======================
> >> O course it isn't clear to you, killer. Anything that
> >> contradicts your fantasy is just ignored. So much or all that
> >> research you did on your lifestylr choices and animal death
> >> and
> >> suffering fool. Ty looking up power poduction and
> >> communications
> >> as a start, killer.
> >>
> >
> > Well, maybe I will.
> =============
> see below, i did your "research" for you...
>
> But perhaps first you could address this point for
> > me: How do I contribute to power production and communications
> > infrastructure by posting to usenet? My family would use this
> > computer
> > regardless of whether I posted to usenet.
> ====================
> For what "need"? There is no survial need to use a computer.
> Your selfish interest in entertainemnt is part of, and drives,
> and ever increasing demand for more power generation and
> communications. You "could" make a difference, according to your
> vegan argument, by eliminating all useage of your computer and
> communications.

No, I couldn't. My family would still use the computer and pay for the
internet connection. The amount of suffering caused would be the same.

> You won't, because, as has been proven, a
> concern for animals is not really what you are about. If it
> were, you wouldn't be tracking your bloody footprints all over
> the world.
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> And I have done my homework on that, I believe that the
> >> >> best
> >> >> >> way to do it is to become vegan.
> >> >> ==============================
> >> >> ROTFLMAO You've done zero homework fool. Propaganda
> >> >> doesn't
> >> >> mean anything. Tell use how many animals died for your
> >> >> diet
> >> >> prior to your conversion, and how many now die after your
> >> >> conversion.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > There was some discussion of this issue in the article I
> >> > linked
> >> > to.
> >> ==================
> >> No fool, YOU claimed that the best way was to be vegan,
> >> because
> >> YOU researched it! It's quite obvious that that was a ly.
> >> You
> >> have researched nothing! You read a few propaganda sites and
> >> declare yourself vituous... What a hoot!
> >>
> >
> > I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. I didn't read a few
> > propaganda
> > sites, I read a few philosophy books.
> ==============================
> ROTFLMAO And what data did they provide for you? Obviously
> none!
>

Wrong.

>
> I don't see how you've refuted my
> > claim that I obtained some information and decided on the basis
> > of it
> > that veganism would reduce my contribution to animal suffering.
> =====================
> Because you have yet to support that claim with any data, fool.

Also wrong.

> You claimed you cause ewer animals to suffer and die. Prove it!
>

I gave my arguments once again above.

>
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> If you've got some suggestions for how
> >> >> >> I can do better I'm happy to listen to them.
> >> >> ====================
> >> >> You've been given them, killer.
> >> >
> >> > This is simply a lie. Stop evading the question and answer
> >> > it.
> >> ================
> >> No it is not a ly, fool. You claimed to have done the
> >> research,
> >> and it's now benn proven that you lied. If yu had, you would
> >> easily find what we ae talking about.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I read some information about modern farming techniques, and
> > concluded
> > on that basis that veganism would contribute less to animal
> > suffering.
> ======================
> Then yu are even more stupid than I thought.
>
>
> > I have read about Davis' model for pasture-ruminant production,
> > but I
> > have my doubts that contributing to such production would
> > reduce my
> > contribution to animal suffering, for reasons outlined in the
> > article I
> > linked to. I haven't come across any other suggestions for
> > reducing my
> > contribution to animal suffering beyond what I do by going
> > vegan.
> ====================
> And you have yet to support that claim. I'll wait. Make up any
> numbers you like....
>

I have supported the claim. I've even linked to an article which has
got a few numbers in it.

>
> > Perhaps this reflects poorly on the amount of research I've
> > done.
> > Whatever. You claimed that you had given me some suggestions,
> > and this
> > is simply false. I'm still waiting for you to give me some.
> > It's
> > getting very boring.
> ================
> hen you didn't look, did you?
>

Yes, I did. Still waiting for your suggestions.

>
> >
> >> >
> >> >> And if you HAD done your
> >> >> homework, which you just exposed as a ly, you would know
> >> >> that
> >> >> thee are alternatives.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A typical vegan could reduce the net amount of animal
> >> >> > death
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > suffering associated with his or her diet by the
> >> >> > introduction
> >> >> > of some carefully selected meat, fish or game, a person
> >> >> > who
> >> >> > supplements their diet by hunting or fishing for example.
> >> >> > Also
> >> >> > a person who also grows much of their own food *and*
> >> >> > consumes
> >> >> > meat probably does much better than that typical urban
> >> >> > vegan.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting you do these
> >> >> > things, I
> >> >> > am just asking you to acknowledge that they are viable
> >> >> > choices.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> I'm not altogether convinced that the suggestion "stop
> >> >> >> supporting
> >> >> >> commerical agriculture" is entirely feasible for me. If
> >> >> >> you've
> >> >> >> got some
> >> >> >> ideas as to how I can do it I'm happy to listen to
> >> >> >> those,
> >> >> >> as
> >> >> >> well.
> >> >> ====================
> >> >> LOL You mean anything that won't be an inconvenience or
> >> >> violate
> >> >> your simple rule for your simple mind, right killer?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > No.
> >> > ================
> >> Yes, obviously. Because of everything in your life that
> >> causes
> >> massive animal death and suffering, all YOU cry about is those
> >> that eat meat.
> >
> > I believe I have a moral obligation to minimize my contribution
> > to
> > animal suffering.
> ==================
> Yet are not doing that, and have failed to prove you even try.
>

How about an argument for why I'm not doing that?

>
> I do my best to live up to it. I don't think I've
> > been "crying" about those who eat meat, but I do think it's a
> > shame
> > that some people contribute to cruel farming practices more
> > than they
> > have to, and meat-eating frequently involves this.
> ================
> Your crop production ALWAYS does...
>

No. Buying plant products isn't necessarily contributing to cruel
farming practices more than you have to.

> I am open to
> > conviction about whether eating some meat might be compatible
> > with
> > minimizing one's contribution to animal suffering. I'm still
> > waiting
> > for someone to provide a practical suggestion for further
> > reducing my
> > contribution to animal suffering together with evidence that it
> > will
> > actually do this. It's a simple enough request. Why don't you
> > respond
> > to it instead of engaging in gratuitous abuse?
> ================
> Becaause it has been presented many times. I you wee really open
> minded and looking for real answers, you'd find it.
>

I see. You refuse to actually present the suggestion or provide a link
to it, but the burden is still on me to go through the usenet archives
and find it. Well, I have had a look, and I may have another one. But
do you have any particular reason for not just presenting the
suggestion? I've asked you quite a few times now.

>
> >
> >> Something YOU have no control over. You focus on
> >> what others are doing because it is far easier than actually
> >> doing anything in YOUR life to make a real difference.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Yeah. Right. Whatever you say. As I say, I'll be interested to
> > hear any
> > suggestions you have for how I can make more of a difference
> > than I
> > already have. But I'm beginning to suspect you're more
> > interested in
> > just tossing out insults.
> ====================
> And you'e more interested in remaining an ignorant, brainwashed
> loon, eh?
>

Oh, for heaven's sake. Why don't you just provide some suggestions?
It's pathetic.

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