"Rupert" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> rick wrote:
>> "Rupert" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > Dutch wrote:
>> >> "Rupert" > wrote
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Dutch wrote:
>> >> >> > wrote
>> >> >>
>> >> >> [..]
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > I think you'll find "factory-farming" usually refers
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > the intensive
>> >> >> > rearing of animals. Have you got a justification for
>> >> >> > calling
>> >> >> > mono-culture crop production "factory-farming"?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Don't like people turning your pet pjoratives back on
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> eh?
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Well, "factory-farming" is a simple descriptive term.
>> >>
>> >> It carries much more baggage than that.
>> >>
>> >> > It doesn't matter
>> >> > very much what it actually refers to, I was just
>> >> > surprised
>> >> > that he
>> >> > thought this was a correct application of the word.
>> >>
>> >> I realize that, because you don't fancy yourself as
>> >> supporting
>> >> "factory
>> >> farming".
>> >>
>> >> Vegans typically have idealized views of themselves.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Well, be that as it may, I have provided you with no further
>> > evidence
>> > for this view. I was surprised to hear monoculture-crop
>> > production
>> > referred to as "factory farming", because I have always
>> > heard
>> > this
>> > phrase used to refer to the intensive farming of animals. If
>> > he's right
>> > about the correct application of the word (which I'm not
>> > convinced of),
>> > then so be it. I have no problem with the idea that I
>> > support
>> > "factory
>> > farming", so construed. What I *desire* about myself - not
>> > "fancy about
>> > myself" - is that I contribute to as little animal suffering
>> > as
>> > possible.
>> =================
>> You're lying again....
>
> No, I'm not.
=================
Yes, you are, You've provided no such proof of your claims, and
by posting here you have proven that causing unnecessary animal
deaths are of no concern to you.


>
>> Afterall, here you are spweing your
>> nonsense on usenet again, killer.
>>
>>
>> If anyone thinks that's not the case, I'm interested to hear
>> > what he has to say on the matter.
>> ===============
>> No you're not. You wave your hands and pretend that anything
>> that doesn't fit your brainwashing doesn't exist.
>>
>
> This isn't an argument.
=====================
LOL And yours is where?


>
>>
>> >
>> >> > Anyway, I intended (correctly or otherwise) to use the
>> >> > word
>> >> > to refer to
>> >> > intensive rearing of animals. Furthermore this clearly
>> >> > involves a lot
>> >> > more suffering than what he was referring to.
>> >>
>> >> Does it? How do you know? How much animal death and
>> >> suffering
>> >> results from
>> >> cultivation, planting, spraying, harvesting, storage
>> >> protection, etc, etc..
>> >>
>> >
>> > (1) The number of animals involved is greater, and
>> > (2) The suffering inflicted on each animal is greater.
>> > Perhaps (1) is false when we take into account all the
>> > animals
>> > killed
>> > by the plant production necessitated by animal food
>> > production.
>> ======================
>> Just use those that die for people food, killer. Once you
>> admit
>> that massive death and suffering occurs for your cheap,
>> convenient veggies, you've lost....
>>
>>
>> But
>> > it's not false if we're only talking about the amount of
>> > plant
>> > production that would be necessary to support universal
>> > veganism. Davis
>> > estimates the death toll at 1.8 billion. More animals than
>> > that
>> > are
>> > killed in animal food production. And each animal suffers
>> > considerably
>> > more.
>> =======================
>> Where do you get this ly from, killer? Can you back up the
>> statement that all meat animals suffer more than any animal
>> killed for your veggies? Didn't think so.....
>>
>
> Yes, I can. I did it in a different post.
==================
No, you didn't. You can't prove a ly, killer.


>
>>
>> >
>> >> >> > Anyway, it's all very well to abuse me for supporting
>> >> >> > these practices,
>> >> >> > but you don't offer any serious alternative to doing
>> >> >> > so.
>> >> >> > If you had a
>> >> >> > serious proposal for my further reducing the
>> >> >> > contribution
>> >> >> > I make to
>> >> >> > animal suffering then I would consider it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Stop supporting commercial agriculture, it kills
>> >> >> countless
>> >> >> billions
>> >> >> of animals. Anyway, it's you who proposed that killing
>> >> >> animals is
>> >> >> to be avoided, why should we now determine for you how
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> are going to live up to it? Do your own homework.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm sorry, can you quote me as saying that buying
>> >> > products
>> >> > whose
>> >> > production involved the death of animals is absolutely
>> >> > prohibited? I
>> >> > don't think you can.
>> >>
>> >> I see, so it's fine to cause death and suffering of animals
>> >> when it fits
>> >> conveniently into your chosen lifestyle but not when it
>> >> fits
>> >> into mine.
>> >>
>> >
>> > That's not a very reasonable interpretation of my argument.
>> > I
>> > believe
>> > in a principle enunciated by David DeGrazia in "Taking
>> > Animals
>> > Seriously": Make every reasonable effort to avoid providing
>> > financial
>> > support to practices that cause or support unnecessary harm.
>> =======================
>> Really? Then why do you ignore that sentiment, killer?
>>
>
> I try to live in accordance with the principle. As I say, I'm
> interested to hear any suggestions you have about what's
> involved in
> living up to it, but you refuse to take my expressions of
> interest at
> face value and instead prefer just to spew abuse. Not very
> constructive.
===============
Because you have yet to show any real interest, killer. You keep
repeating the same tired old lys over and over.


>
>>
>> I believe
>> > that, on any reasonable interpretation of this principle,
>> > this
>> > will
>> > require veganism or near-veganism. It's not altogether clear
>> > to
>> > me that
>> > it requires me to stop supporting commercial agriculture.
>> ===============
>> That's only because it's too convenient for you to continue
>> it,
>> just as your entertainment comes befor actually caring about
>> animals.
>>
>
> No, it's because I have some doubts that boycotting commercial
> agriculture falls within the extent of "making every reasonable
> effort".
=====================
LOL Of course you do, it would require that you be
inconvenienced, eh killer?

Some efforts go beyond making every reasonable effort. Maybe
> these doubts are unfounded. Feel free to argue the point. I
> would also
> be interested in any thoughts you may have about how I can grow
> all my
> own food in my back garden.
=================
You can't. And more to the point, you won't. You're too
convenience, consumer oriented...


>
>> That depends
>> > on what's involved in "making every reasonable effort". I am
>> > open-minded on this matter. Maybe you can persuade me that
>> > "making
>> > every reasonable effort" does require that I stop supporting
>> > commercial
>> > agriculture. Or maybe you can persuade me that I should
>> > accept
>> > some
>> > more stringent moral principle, which would require me to
>> > stop
>> > supporting commercial agriculture. Go for it. But it
>> > requires
>> > some
>> > argument.
>> ====================
>> You're the one that made the argument, and you are the one
>> that
>> fails to abide by it.
>
> Yes, I did make the argument, and you haven't demonstrated that
> I fail
> to abide by it.
=======================
LOL You've been told there are meats that cause ar less death
and suffering than your veggies. You refuse to look up anything
about it.


>
>> Read above... You continue to support, no
>> make that reward, those that provide you with cheap,
>> convenient
>> food and entertainment at the cost of animal death and
>> suffering.
>>
>
> But I make every reasonable effort to minimize the animal
> suffering to
> which I contribute.
====================
No, fool, you don't. You just proved that yet again....

>
>>
>> >
>> >> > What I do think is that we should make every
>> >> > reasonable effort to minimize our contribution to the
>> >> > suffering of
>> >> > animals. And I have done my homework on that, I believe
>> >> > that
>> >> > the best
>> >> > way to do it is to become vegan. If you've got some
>> >> > suggestions for how
>> >> > I can do better I'm happy to listen to them.
>> >>
>> >> A typical vegan could reduce the net amount of animal death
>> >> and suffering
>> >> associated with his or her diet by the introduction of some
>> >> carefully
>> >> selected meat, fish or game, a person who supplements their
>> >> diet by hunting
>> >> or fishing for example.
>> >
>> > Fishing? Fishing involves a fairly high death rate per
>> > serving
>> > of food.
>> =====================
>> LOL What a hoot! As opposed to say fake tofu meats? You
>> really
>> atre this brainwashed, aren't you?
>>
>
> Not necessarily as opposed to that, I was thinking more as
> opposed to
> vegetables and pulses. Whatever. All I said was I'd like to see
> more
> evidence. A pretty reasonable demand, wouldn't you say? Have
> you got
> any?
=====================
You aren't trying to read, are you?


>
>>
>> > I would want to see some more evidence that fishing will do
>> > any
>> > good.
>> > And one problem with hunting is that not all of the animals
>> > are
>> > killed,
>> > some of them are just seriously maimed.
>> =============================
>> Far less than the number for your veggies, killer.
>>
>
> Any evidence?
> ===========
see below, killer...


>>
>> So the amount of suffering and
>> > death caused per serving of food is higher than it appears
>> > at
>> > first.
>> =====================
>> And still no where near your death toll, fool.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Where do you suggest I go hunting, anyway? Or where do you
>> > suggest I
>> > buy my meat? And what is your evidence that this will
>> > actually
>> > *reduce*
>> > the amount of animal death and suffering I contribute to?
>> ====================
>> Again, you have proven that you lied when you claimed to have
>> done all the research needed. Not a surprise now, is it?
>>
>
> I didn't say I had done all the research needed. I said I had
> obtained
> some information and acted on the basis of it. Instead of
> iterating
> this utterly trivial point ad nauseam, why don't you actually
> respond
> to my requests for evidence?
======================
Why don't you actually support your claims with data? Afterall,
you made the claims.
See below for some data, killer.


>
>>
>> >
>> >> Also a person who also grows much of their own food
>> >> *and* consumes meat probably does much better than that
>> >> typical urban vegan.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Consumes what sort of meat?
>> >
>> > Growing more of my own food seems like a better proposal.
>> > I'll
>> > consider
>> > that one.
>> ================
>> No you won't. You're too convenience oriented...
>>
>
> I'm looking into the possibility of growing my own vegetables.
=================
Looking, not doing, figures...

>
>> >
>> >> Don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting you do these
>> >> things,
>> >> I am just
>> >> asking you to acknowledge that they are viable choices.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Sure they are. But I'm not sure you've offered any practical
>> > suggestions that will definitely reduce my contribution to
>> > animal death
>> > and suffering, except possibly growing some of my own food.
>> ===============
>> Then you are either blind, stupid, ignorant or too far
>> brainwashed to understand, killer.
>>
>
> Right. I see. Well, perhaps you can answer my requests for
> evidence
> that your other suggestions actually will reduce my
> contribution to
> animal suffering.
===========================
You aren't even looking, are you? See, you prove that point
every post.


>
>>
>> >
>> >> > I'm not altogether convinced that the suggestion "stop
>> >> > supporting
>> >> > commerical agriculture" is entirely feasible for me. If
>> >> > you've got some
>> >> > ideas as to how I can do it I'm happy to listen to those,
>> >> > as
>> >> > well.
>> >>
>> >> Of course "feasible" is something you define for yourself.
>> >> I
>> >> would like you
>> >> to show me the respect to allow me to do the same for
>> >> myself.
>> >
>> > There is a limit to the reasonable application of words.
>> > There
>> > is no
>> > reasonable sense in which it is "unfeasible" to become
>> > vegan.
>> > It is
>> > feasible for me to reduce the extent to which I support
>> > commerical
>> > agriculture, but to stop supporting it - well, I'd just be
>> > interested
>> > to hear how you propose I would go about doing that.
>> >
>>
>> Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
>> pesticides. Animals die.
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
>> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
>> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
>> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
>> http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
>> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
>> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
>> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
>> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
>> http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
>> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
>> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
>> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
>> http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
>> http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
>> http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
>> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
>> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
>> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
>> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
>> http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
>> http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
>> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
>> http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
>> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
>> http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
>> http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
>> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
>> http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
>> http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
>> http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
>> http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
>> http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
>> http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
>> http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
>> http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
>> http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
>> http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
>> http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html
>>
>> http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
>> http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
>> http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
>> http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
>> http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
>> http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
>> here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
>> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
>> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
>> http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm
>>
>> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
>> here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that
>> there
>> can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
>> http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
>> /natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
>> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
>> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
>> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
>>
>>
>> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
>> maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
>> dealing with power and communications.
>> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
>> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
>