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rick
 
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"Rupert" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
> rick wrote:
>> "Rupert" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > rick wrote:
>> >> Dutch, ruperts message didn't show up on my server, so I'll
>> >> piggy-back on yours...
>> >>
>> >> "Dutch" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >
>> >> > "Rupert" > wrote
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dutch wrote:
>> >> >>> > wrote
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> [..]
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> > I think you'll find "factory-farming" usually refers
>> >> >>> > to
>> >> >>> > the
>> >> >>> > intensive
>> >> >>> > rearing of animals. Have you got a justification for
>> >> >>> > calling
>> >> >>> > mono-culture crop production "factory-farming"?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Don't like people turning your pet pjoratives back on
>> >> >>> you
>> >> >>> eh?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well, "factory-farming" is a simple descriptive term.
>> >> ========================
>> >> Yes, it is, and as I explained, far more descriptive of
>> >> crop
>> >> farming....
>> >>
>> >
>> > Well, I wasn't very convinced by what you said.

>> ====================
>> Only because you're brainwashing has your mind closed. Try to
>> reute what you have been told, don't just say nah, nah, nah,
>> killer.
>>

>
> Well, the only fact you provided was that beef cattle start out
> on
> pasture. I asked for a reference on this.

===========
Really? I didn't see any such request. Try USDA fool...
"...All cattle start out eating grass; three-fourths of them are
"finished" (grown to maturity) in feedlots..."
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets...able/index.asp


But, however that may be, it
> hardly proves your case. To prove your case, you would need to
> examine
> the details of crop production and intensive rearing of animals
> and
> compare them, and demonstrate that the former deserved the
> label
> "factory farming" more than the latter. You didn't do this.

========================
You already claimed to have done that research. You provide your
data, killer.
see below...


>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > It carries much more baggage than that.
>> >> >
>> >> >> It doesn't matter
>> >> >> very much what it actually refers to, I was just
>> >> >> surprised
>> >> >> that he
>> >> >> thought this was a correct application of the word.
>> >> ==================
>> >> It's very correct, unless of course you have an agenda to
>> >> promote
>> >> that doesn't have anything to do with reality, eh killer?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Well, feel free to support your case.

>> ================
>> LOL I already did, fool. You have yet to support your
>> contentions. vegans never do, and never will, because all you
>> have is a simple rule for your simple minds....
>>

>
> You made an attempt to support your case, but I wasn't that
> impressed
> with it so far. I have provided arguments for my contentions.
> If you
> want to address them, go ahead.

====================
No, you haven't. You've spewed vegan propaganda without any
data. Show your proof, fool. Aterall, you claimed to have done
all the research.


>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > I realize that, because you don't fancy yourself as
>> >> > supporting
>> >> > "factory farming".
>> >> >
>> >> > Vegans typically have idealized views of themselves.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Anyway, I intended (correctly or otherwise) to use the
>> >> >> word
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> refer to
>> >> >> intensive rearing of animals. Furthermore this clearly
>> >> >> involves a lot
>> >> >> more suffering than what he was referring to.
>> >> ===========================
>> >> LOL More suffering that slicing, dicing, shredding and
>> >> having
>> >> your guts rotted out?
>> >
>> > Yes.

>> ================
>> Show it then, fool.
>>
>>

>
> I believe that being confined for most of your life in cages or
> stalls
> that are too narrow for you to turn around, and being subject
> to
> unanaesthetized branding, dehorning, debeaking, castration, and
> tail
> docking,

=====================
You haven't proven that all animals "suffer" in these ways,
killer. It has been proven though that your crops kill massive
numbers of animals in very brutal, very inhumane ways.

cause more suffering than being killed in a relatively short
> time by a combine harvester.

==============================
LOL Forget all those chemical applications already, killer?
Tell us how having your guts turn to mush over several days is a
"humane" way to die...





>
>> >
>> >> You must be totally brainwashed, eh fool?
>> >> Do some meat animals 'suffer?' I'm sure that some probably
>> >> do,
>> >> according to your definition. But they are not "ALL" meat
>> >> animals, fool.
>> >
>> > Just the great majority of them.

>> ==================
>> Then why the complete ban on all meats, killer? Your veggies
>> kill far more animals than the meats I eat.
>>

>
> What complete ban on all meats?

=================
Then you do eat some meats, eh? Again, you have failed to answer
the question. Why the complete ban/avoidance/whatever you want
to call it, of ALL meats?


>
> Do you have some evidence that the production of the meat you
> eat
> causes fewer deaths than the production of vegetables?
> ==========================

SUre, come on down and see them. You can even pet them if you
like. They are pasture raised, no hormones, no antibiotics, no
feed crops. They are not confined, though they do have a
3-sided barn for shelter when they want. The chickens next door
run freely through our back yard, and again, then do have a coop,
but are left to roam on their own.
The beef I eat from these animals replaces 100s of 1000s o
calories that YOU get from mono-culture factory farming. I count
the number of animals daths for my meat by 100s of meals per
death. You're lucky if you an say 100s of deaths per meal.


>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Does it? How do you know? How much animal death and
>> >> > suffering
>> >> > results from cultivation, planting, spraying, harvesting,
>> >> > storage protection, etc, etc..
>> >> >
>> >> >>> > Anyway, it's all very well to abuse me for supporting
>> >> >>> > these
>> >> >>> > practices,
>> >> >>> > but you don't offer any serious alternative to doing
>> >> >>> > so.
>> >> >>> > If
>> >> >>> > you had a
>> >> >>> > serious proposal for my further reducing the
>> >> >>> > contribution I
>> >> >>> > make to
>> >> >>> > animal suffering then I would consider it.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Stop supporting commercial agriculture, it kills
>> >> >>> countless
>> >> >>> billions
>> >> >>> of animals. Anyway, it's you who proposed that killing
>> >> >>> animals is
>> >> >>> to be avoided, why should we now determine for you how
>> >> >>> you
>> >> >>> are going to live up to it? Do your own homework.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm sorry, can you quote me as saying that buying
>> >> >> products
>> >> >> whose
>> >> >> production involved the death of animals is absolutely
>> >> >> prohibited? I
>> >> >> don't think you can.
>> >> ==================
>> >> Then why the ignorant prohibition on buying meat?
>> >> Obviouly
>> >> it
>> >> really has NOTHING to do with animal death and suffering,
>> >> then,
>> >> eh killer?
>> >>
>> >
>> > I believe that the most practical way to minimize one's
>> > contribution to
>> > animal suffering is to be vegan.

>> ====================
>> A contention that you have never proen, or even tried to
>> support
>> with any data.
>>

>
> I have pointed out that veganism avoids support of intensive
> rearing of
> animals, I have pointed out that animal food production
> requires more
> plant production than plant food production,

============================
No, you have repeated a vegan ly. There is NO requirment to grow
crops for animals, fool. None.


and I have linked to an
> article that discusses Davis' model of ruminant-pasture food
> production
> and compares it with a vegan model. You, on the other hand,
> have never
> supported your contention that it is possible to cause less
> suffering
> than that caused by a vegan diet by eating some meat. You might
> be
> right in this, but you have never proven it, or even tried to
> support
> it with any data.

=========================
Yes, I have killer. Many times, and long before you arrived.
But then, you should know that, since afterall, you did all that
research, right killer?



>
>>
>> Perhaps there are also some ways of
>> > doing this that involve buying some meat. I'm interested to
>> > hear any
>> > evidence you have about this matter.

>> ===============
>> No you aren't. You'e a closed-minded fool that makes claims
>> that
>> you cannot support.
>>

>
> Um, yeah. Really intelligent. Really cogent argument. Keep up
> the good
> work.

=================
Kinda sounded like you, didn't it? Where's your proof, fool?


>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > I see, so it's fine to cause death and suffering of
>> >> > animals
>> >> > when it fits conveniently into your chosen lifestyle but
>> >> > not
>> >> > when it fits into mine.
>> >> >
>> >> >> What I do think is that we should make every
>> >> >> reasonable effort to minimize our contribution to the
>> >> >> suffering of
>> >> >> animals.
>> >> ====================
>> >> Then why are you posting to usenet, killer?
>> >>
>> >
>> > It's not clear to me that posting to usenet contributes to
>> > the
>> > suffering of animals.

>> =======================
>> O course it isn't clear to you, killer. Anything that
>> contradicts your fantasy is just ignored. So much or all that
>> research you did on your lifestylr choices and animal death
>> and
>> suffering fool. Ty looking up power poduction and
>> communications
>> as a start, killer.
>>

>
> Well, maybe I will.

=============
see below, i did your "research" for you...

But perhaps first you could address this point for
> me: How do I contribute to power production and communications
> infrastructure by posting to usenet? My family would use this
> computer
> regardless of whether I posted to usenet.

====================
For what "need"? There is no survial need to use a computer.
Your selfish interest in entertainemnt is part of, and drives,
and ever increasing demand for more power generation and
communications. You "could" make a difference, according to your
vegan argument, by eliminating all useage of your computer and
communications. You won't, because, as has been proven, a
concern for animals is not really what you are about. If it
were, you wouldn't be tracking your bloody footprints all over
the world.


>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> And I have done my homework on that, I believe that the
>> >> best
>> >> >> way to do it is to become vegan.
>> >> ==============================
>> >> ROTFLMAO You've done zero homework fool. Propaganda
>> >> doesn't
>> >> mean anything. Tell use how many animals died for your
>> >> diet
>> >> prior to your conversion, and how many now die after your
>> >> conversion.
>> >>
>> >
>> > There was some discussion of this issue in the article I
>> > linked
>> > to.

>> ==================
>> No fool, YOU claimed that the best way was to be vegan,
>> because
>> YOU researched it! It's quite obvious that that was a ly.
>> You
>> have researched nothing! You read a few propaganda sites and
>> declare yourself vituous... What a hoot!
>>

>
> I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. I didn't read a few
> propaganda
> sites, I read a few philosophy books.

==============================
ROTFLMAO And what data did they provide for you? Obviously
none!


I don't see how you've refuted my
> claim that I obtained some information and decided on the basis
> of it
> that veganism would reduce my contribution to animal suffering.

=====================
Because you have yet to support that claim with any data, fool.
You claimed you cause ewer animals to suffer and die. Prove it!


>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> If you've got some suggestions for how
>> >> >> I can do better I'm happy to listen to them.
>> >> ====================
>> >> You've been given them, killer.
>> >
>> > This is simply a lie. Stop evading the question and answer
>> > it.

>> ================
>> No it is not a ly, fool. You claimed to have done the
>> research,
>> and it's now benn proven that you lied. If yu had, you would
>> easily find what we ae talking about.
>>
>>

>
> I read some information about modern farming techniques, and
> concluded
> on that basis that veganism would contribute less to animal
> suffering.

======================
Then yu are even more stupid than I thought.


> I have read about Davis' model for pasture-ruminant production,
> but I
> have my doubts that contributing to such production would
> reduce my
> contribution to animal suffering, for reasons outlined in the
> article I
> linked to. I haven't come across any other suggestions for
> reducing my
> contribution to animal suffering beyond what I do by going
> vegan.

====================
And you have yet to support that claim. I'll wait. Make up any
numbers you like....


> Perhaps this reflects poorly on the amount of research I've
> done.
> Whatever. You claimed that you had given me some suggestions,
> and this
> is simply false. I'm still waiting for you to give me some.
> It's
> getting very boring.

================
hen you didn't look, did you?


>
>> >
>> >> And if you HAD done your
>> >> homework, which you just exposed as a ly, you would know
>> >> that
>> >> thee are alternatives.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > A typical vegan could reduce the net amount of animal
>> >> > death
>> >> > and
>> >> > suffering associated with his or her diet by the
>> >> > introduction
>> >> > of some carefully selected meat, fish or game, a person
>> >> > who
>> >> > supplements their diet by hunting or fishing for example.
>> >> > Also
>> >> > a person who also grows much of their own food *and*
>> >> > consumes
>> >> > meat probably does much better than that typical urban
>> >> > vegan.
>> >> >
>> >> > Don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting you do these
>> >> > things, I
>> >> > am just asking you to acknowledge that they are viable
>> >> > choices.
>> >> >
>> >> >> I'm not altogether convinced that the suggestion "stop
>> >> >> supporting
>> >> >> commerical agriculture" is entirely feasible for me. If
>> >> >> you've
>> >> >> got some
>> >> >> ideas as to how I can do it I'm happy to listen to
>> >> >> those,
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> well.
>> >> ====================
>> >> LOL You mean anything that won't be an inconvenience or
>> >> violate
>> >> your simple rule for your simple mind, right killer?
>> >>
>> >
>> > No.
>> > ================

>> Yes, obviously. Because of everything in your life that
>> causes
>> massive animal death and suffering, all YOU cry about is those
>> that eat meat.

>
> I believe I have a moral obligation to minimize my contribution
> to
> animal suffering.

==================
Yet are not doing that, and have failed to prove you even try.


I do my best to live up to it. I don't think I've
> been "crying" about those who eat meat, but I do think it's a
> shame
> that some people contribute to cruel farming practices more
> than they
> have to, and meat-eating frequently involves this.

================
Your crop production ALWAYS does...

I am open to
> conviction about whether eating some meat might be compatible
> with
> minimizing one's contribution to animal suffering. I'm still
> waiting
> for someone to provide a practical suggestion for further
> reducing my
> contribution to animal suffering together with evidence that it
> will
> actually do this. It's a simple enough request. Why don't you
> respond
> to it instead of engaging in gratuitous abuse?

================
Becaause it has been presented many times. I you wee really open
minded and looking for real answers, you'd find it.


>
>> Something YOU have no control over. You focus on
>> what others are doing because it is far easier than actually
>> doing anything in YOUR life to make a real difference.
>>
>>

>
> Yeah. Right. Whatever you say. As I say, I'll be interested to
> hear any
> suggestions you have for how I can make more of a difference
> than I
> already have. But I'm beginning to suspect you're more
> interested in
> just tossing out insults.

====================
And you'e more interested in remaining an ignorant, brainwashed
loon, eh?


>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Of course "feasible" is something you define for
>> >> > yourself. I
>> >> > would like you to show me the respect to allow me to do
>> >> > the
>> >> > same for myself.
>> >> >
>> >

>



Here's a few sites about animals that die for your
diet/lifestyle...
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf


Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
What your referenced 'article' never mentions is that there are
many deaths other than just those that die outright rom the
mechinazation. Your crops provided an unnaturally large amount o
ood and cover, allowing the field populations to boom. Then you
take away all that food and cover. The ones that don't die
outright under the machines, then face starvation and predation.
Tell us how "humane" those deaths are.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, here's a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html