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Rupert
 
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rick wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> >
> > Dutch wrote:
> >> "Rupert" > wrote
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Dutch wrote:
> >> >> > wrote
> >> >>
> >> >> [..]
> >> >>
> >> >> > I think you'll find "factory-farming" usually refers to
> >> >> > the intensive
> >> >> > rearing of animals. Have you got a justification for
> >> >> > calling
> >> >> > mono-culture crop production "factory-farming"?
> >> >>
> >> >> Don't like people turning your pet pjoratives back on you
> >> >> eh?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Well, "factory-farming" is a simple descriptive term.
> >>
> >> It carries much more baggage than that.
> >>
> >> > It doesn't matter
> >> > very much what it actually refers to, I was just surprised
> >> > that he
> >> > thought this was a correct application of the word.
> >>
> >> I realize that, because you don't fancy yourself as supporting
> >> "factory
> >> farming".
> >>
> >> Vegans typically have idealized views of themselves.
> >>

> >
> > Well, be that as it may, I have provided you with no further
> > evidence
> > for this view. I was surprised to hear monoculture-crop
> > production
> > referred to as "factory farming", because I have always heard
> > this
> > phrase used to refer to the intensive farming of animals. If
> > he's right
> > about the correct application of the word (which I'm not
> > convinced of),
> > then so be it. I have no problem with the idea that I support
> > "factory
> > farming", so construed. What I *desire* about myself - not
> > "fancy about
> > myself" - is that I contribute to as little animal suffering as
> > possible.

> =================
> You're lying again....


No, I'm not.

> Afterall, here you are spweing your
> nonsense on usenet again, killer.
>
>
> If anyone thinks that's not the case, I'm interested to hear
> > what he has to say on the matter.

> ===============
> No you're not. You wave your hands and pretend that anything
> that doesn't fit your brainwashing doesn't exist.
>


This isn't an argument.

>
> >
> >> > Anyway, I intended (correctly or otherwise) to use the word
> >> > to refer to
> >> > intensive rearing of animals. Furthermore this clearly
> >> > involves a lot
> >> > more suffering than what he was referring to.
> >>
> >> Does it? How do you know? How much animal death and suffering
> >> results from
> >> cultivation, planting, spraying, harvesting, storage
> >> protection, etc, etc..
> >>

> >
> > (1) The number of animals involved is greater, and
> > (2) The suffering inflicted on each animal is greater.
> > Perhaps (1) is false when we take into account all the animals
> > killed
> > by the plant production necessitated by animal food production.

> ======================
> Just use those that die for people food, killer. Once you admit
> that massive death and suffering occurs for your cheap,
> convenient veggies, you've lost....
>
>
> But
> > it's not false if we're only talking about the amount of plant
> > production that would be necessary to support universal
> > veganism. Davis
> > estimates the death toll at 1.8 billion. More animals than that
> > are
> > killed in animal food production. And each animal suffers
> > considerably
> > more.

> =======================
> Where do you get this ly from, killer? Can you back up the
> statement that all meat animals suffer more than any animal
> killed for your veggies? Didn't think so.....
>


Yes, I can. I did it in a different post.

>
> >
> >> >> > Anyway, it's all very well to abuse me for supporting
> >> >> > these practices,
> >> >> > but you don't offer any serious alternative to doing so.
> >> >> > If you had a
> >> >> > serious proposal for my further reducing the contribution
> >> >> > I make to
> >> >> > animal suffering then I would consider it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Stop supporting commercial agriculture, it kills countless
> >> >> billions
> >> >> of animals. Anyway, it's you who proposed that killing
> >> >> animals is
> >> >> to be avoided, why should we now determine for you how you
> >> >> are going to live up to it? Do your own homework.
> >> >
> >> > I'm sorry, can you quote me as saying that buying products
> >> > whose
> >> > production involved the death of animals is absolutely
> >> > prohibited? I
> >> > don't think you can.
> >>
> >> I see, so it's fine to cause death and suffering of animals
> >> when it fits
> >> conveniently into your chosen lifestyle but not when it fits
> >> into mine.
> >>

> >
> > That's not a very reasonable interpretation of my argument. I
> > believe
> > in a principle enunciated by David DeGrazia in "Taking Animals
> > Seriously": Make every reasonable effort to avoid providing
> > financial
> > support to practices that cause or support unnecessary harm.

> =======================
> Really? Then why do you ignore that sentiment, killer?
>


I try to live in accordance with the principle. As I say, I'm
interested to hear any suggestions you have about what's involved in
living up to it, but you refuse to take my expressions of interest at
face value and instead prefer just to spew abuse. Not very
constructive.

>
> I believe
> > that, on any reasonable interpretation of this principle, this
> > will
> > require veganism or near-veganism. It's not altogether clear to
> > me that
> > it requires me to stop supporting commercial agriculture.

> ===============
> That's only because it's too convenient for you to continue it,
> just as your entertainment comes befor actually caring about
> animals.
>


No, it's because I have some doubts that boycotting commercial
agriculture falls within the extent of "making every reasonable
effort". Some efforts go beyond making every reasonable effort. Maybe
these doubts are unfounded. Feel free to argue the point. I would also
be interested in any thoughts you may have about how I can grow all my
own food in my back garden.

> That depends
> > on what's involved in "making every reasonable effort". I am
> > open-minded on this matter. Maybe you can persuade me that
> > "making
> > every reasonable effort" does require that I stop supporting
> > commercial
> > agriculture. Or maybe you can persuade me that I should accept
> > some
> > more stringent moral principle, which would require me to stop
> > supporting commercial agriculture. Go for it. But it requires
> > some
> > argument.

> ====================
> You're the one that made the argument, and you are the one that
> fails to abide by it.


Yes, I did make the argument, and you haven't demonstrated that I fail
to abide by it.

> Read above... You continue to support, no
> make that reward, those that provide you with cheap, convenient
> food and entertainment at the cost of animal death and suffering.
>


But I make every reasonable effort to minimize the animal suffering to
which I contribute.

>
> >
> >> > What I do think is that we should make every
> >> > reasonable effort to minimize our contribution to the
> >> > suffering of
> >> > animals. And I have done my homework on that, I believe that
> >> > the best
> >> > way to do it is to become vegan. If you've got some
> >> > suggestions for how
> >> > I can do better I'm happy to listen to them.
> >>
> >> A typical vegan could reduce the net amount of animal death
> >> and suffering
> >> associated with his or her diet by the introduction of some
> >> carefully
> >> selected meat, fish or game, a person who supplements their
> >> diet by hunting
> >> or fishing for example.

> >
> > Fishing? Fishing involves a fairly high death rate per serving
> > of food.

> =====================
> LOL What a hoot! As opposed to say fake tofu meats? You really
> atre this brainwashed, aren't you?
>


Not necessarily as opposed to that, I was thinking more as opposed to
vegetables and pulses. Whatever. All I said was I'd like to see more
evidence. A pretty reasonable demand, wouldn't you say? Have you got
any?

>
> > I would want to see some more evidence that fishing will do any
> > good.
> > And one problem with hunting is that not all of the animals are
> > killed,
> > some of them are just seriously maimed.

> =============================
> Far less than the number for your veggies, killer.
>


Any evidence?

>
> So the amount of suffering and
> > death caused per serving of food is higher than it appears at
> > first.

> =====================
> And still no where near your death toll, fool.
>
>
>
> > Where do you suggest I go hunting, anyway? Or where do you
> > suggest I
> > buy my meat? And what is your evidence that this will actually
> > *reduce*
> > the amount of animal death and suffering I contribute to?

> ====================
> Again, you have proven that you lied when you claimed to have
> done all the research needed. Not a surprise now, is it?
>


I didn't say I had done all the research needed. I said I had obtained
some information and acted on the basis of it. Instead of iterating
this utterly trivial point ad nauseam, why don't you actually respond
to my requests for evidence?

>
> >
> >> Also a person who also grows much of their own food
> >> *and* consumes meat probably does much better than that
> >> typical urban vegan.
> >>

> >
> > Consumes what sort of meat?
> >
> > Growing more of my own food seems like a better proposal. I'll
> > consider
> > that one.

> ================
> No you won't. You're too convenience oriented...
>


I'm looking into the possibility of growing my own vegetables.

> >
> >> Don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting you do these things,
> >> I am just
> >> asking you to acknowledge that they are viable choices.
> >>

> >
> > Sure they are. But I'm not sure you've offered any practical
> > suggestions that will definitely reduce my contribution to
> > animal death
> > and suffering, except possibly growing some of my own food.

> ===============
> Then you are either blind, stupid, ignorant or too far
> brainwashed to understand, killer.
>


Right. I see. Well, perhaps you can answer my requests for evidence
that your other suggestions actually will reduce my contribution to
animal suffering.

>
> >
> >> > I'm not altogether convinced that the suggestion "stop
> >> > supporting
> >> > commerical agriculture" is entirely feasible for me. If
> >> > you've got some
> >> > ideas as to how I can do it I'm happy to listen to those, as
> >> > well.
> >>
> >> Of course "feasible" is something you define for yourself. I
> >> would like you
> >> to show me the respect to allow me to do the same for myself.

> >
> > There is a limit to the reasonable application of words. There
> > is no
> > reasonable sense in which it is "unfeasible" to become vegan.
> > It is
> > feasible for me to reduce the extent to which I support
> > commerical
> > agriculture, but to stop supporting it - well, I'd just be
> > interested
> > to hear how you propose I would go about doing that.
> >

>
> Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
> pesticides. Animals die.
> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
> http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
> http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
> http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
> http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
> http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
> http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
> http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
> http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
> http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
> http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
> http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
> http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
> http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
> http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
> http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
> http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
> http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
> http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
> http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
> http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
> http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
> http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
> http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
> http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
> http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
> http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
> http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
> http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
> http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
> http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html
>
> http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
> http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
> http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
> http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
> http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
> http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf
>
>
>
>
> Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
> here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
> http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
> http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
> http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm
>
> To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
> here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
> can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
> http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
> /natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
> http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
> http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
> http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
>
>
> To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
> maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
> dealing with power and communications.
> http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
> http://www.towerkill.com/index.html