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"Rupert" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Dutch wrote:
>> "Rupert" > wrote
>>
>> > Dutch wrote:
>> >> > wrote
>> >> > The main point of veganism is to boycott factory-farming,
>> >> > which causes
>> >> > animals to lead miserable lives.
>> >>
>> >> That's a lie, vegans boycott ALL forms of animal products,
>> >> not only "factory farmed" meat.
>> >>
>> >
>> > It's not a lie.

>>
>> Yes, it is.
>>

>
> No, it's not. I didn't say vegans only boycott factory farm
> produce. I
> said the main point of veganism was to boycott factory farm
> produce.
> That's a claim about the *main* (not the only) motivation
> behind
> veganism. And it *is* the main point of veganism for me. Who
> are you to
> tell me otherwise?
>
>> > Most animal products are the product of factory farming.

>>
>> And vegans boycott ALL meat, AND vegans consume factory farmed
>> produce,

>
> I'm not convinced that using "factory farming" to cover
> monoculture
> crop production is a reasonable use of the term. If we decide
> that it
> is, substitute "animal products derived from intensively reared
> animals" for "factory farm produce". What does a word matter.
>
>> therefore "factory farming" is not the issue, it's a red
>> herring.
>>

>
> Intensive rearing of animals *is* (the main part of) the issue.
>
>> > It is of
>> > course true that by definition vegans boycott all animal
>> > products;

>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> > my
>> > point was simply that the main part of the case for veganism
>> > is the
>> > case for boycotting factory-farm produce.

>>
>> Vegans don't boycott factory farming, they boycott meat and
>> other "animal
>> products".
>>

>
> In particular, they boycott products from intensively reared
> animals.
> My claim was that this is the main motivation for their diet
> and that
> there is a strong moral case for it.
>
>> >That gets you to
>> > near-veganism. A lot of people do go further, yes, whether
>> > you accept
>> > the rest of the case for full veganism depends on the
>> > individual.

>>
>> It depends on to what degree you buy into the fallacy that
>> boycotting
>> "animal products" eliminates one's complicity in animal death
>> and suffering.

>
> It depends on to what degree you accept that boycotting "animal
> products" *reduces* your contribution to animal suffering - and
> I
> haven't seen any reason to think otherwise yet.
>
>>
>> >> > The animals who live on factory farms have to be fed with
>> >> > plant
>> >> > products, the production of which will cause the death of
>> >> > wildlife.
>> >>
>> >> That's true, but meat can be obtained that requires little
>> >> or
>> >> no plant supplementation. Vegans oppose all of it.
>> >
>> > True. See this article for one possible defence of that.
>> >
>> > http://courses.ats.rochester.edu/nob...least-harm.pdf

>>
>> That article is a mess.
>>

>
> Make a specific criticism of it.
>
>> >> And the
>> >> implication of that position is that it's "plant
>> >> production" at
>> >> the root of much of the animal killing in agriculture, a
>> >> fact
>> >> which confounds the moral presumptions of veganism.
>> >>
>> >
>> > No, it doesn't.

>>
>> Yes it does.
>>
>> > The usual moral defence of veganism is that it is the
>> > best way to minimize one's contribution to animal suffering.
>> > Nothing
>> > you have said disproves that.

>>
>> If I followed a vegan diet I could lessen the toll of animal
>> death by
>> supplementing my diet with fresh fish or game, possibly even
>> free-range
>> pastured meat.
>>

>
> What's your evidence that that would lessen the toll of animal
> death?
>
>> >> > Animal products are an inefficient use of land,
>> >>
>> >> That depends on the land. A lot of land is not very arable
>> >> but ideal for pasture.
>> >>
>> >> > so their production
>> >> > will cause more death of wildlife than the production of
>> >> > plant products
>> >> > to be fed directly to human beings.
>> >>
>> >> Not using non-arable land as pasture and grasses and raw
>> >> grains as the foundation of the human food chain would mean
>> >> a lot more intensive, (i.e. "factory") farming of plants.
>> >>
>> >
>> > So what?

>>
>> So factory farming, intensive monoculture farming is damaging
>> to the
>> envirnoment and responsible for a lot of animal death and
>> suffering.
>>

>
> Yes, but animal food production for the most part entails more
> environmental damage and more animal suffering.

==================
Absolute BS.


>
>> >> > As for the argument that ruminant-pasture food production
>> >> > causes fewer
>> >> > deaths than some forms of plant food production, the
>> >> > following article
>> >> > is worth a look:
>> >> >
>> >> > http://courses.ats.rochester.edu/nob...least-harm.pdf
>> >>
>> >> It's worth a look but not much more, it's full of
>> >> fallacies,
>> >> diversionary arguments and unsupported assertions.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Would you care to elaborate on your critique of it?

>>
>> I have done so in the past, but it's like wading knee-deep in
>> molasses to
>> pore through. I will do so if I get the slightest indication
>> that you are
>> listening, but I do not wish to cast pearls before swine, i.e
>> if it appears
>> your mind is locked-down. That is currently the impression I
>> have.
>>

>
> I am being perfectly rational and open-minded. The only reason
> you have
> that impression is because of your prejudice against vegans.
> Anyway,
> when you've defended your criticism of the article with
> argument I'll
> take it seriously, but not before, obviously.
>
>> >> Vegetarian diets are quite good, and efficient, where
>> >> vegans
>> >> go awry is falling for all the feelgood quasi-political
>> >> nonsense.
>> >
>> > What nonsense?

>>
>> The nonsense that veganism elevates the adherent to a higher
>> moral plane.
>>

>
> Why is it nonsense to suppose that it is ethically better to
> reduce
> your contribution to animal suffering?

================
Nice little strawman killer. He didn't say that, and I haven't
read anybody that has. What is nonsense is to assume that being
vegan automatically means you've achieved any kind of reduction.


>
>> > Some vegans claim that following a vegan diet is the
>> > best way to minimize one's contribution to animal suffering.

>>
>> You all do, and it's clearly not true.
>>

>
> Why not?
>
>> > I don't
>> > see that you've offered me any reason to think otherwise.

>>
>> I have, you can't hear.

>
> No, you haven't. You've begun to gesture in the direction of an
> argument in this post by making some unsupported assertions
> that eating
> a small amount of meat, fish and game will further reduce the
> animal
> death toll. Just describe the diet which you think causes less
> suffering than a vegan diet, and *give evidence that it does*.

====================
No fool, it's YOUR contention that a vegan diet must automatially
cause fewer deaths, and YOU have claimed to do the research.
Show it to us now, killer. Afraid to? Or is it that you lied
when you claimed to have done all that research, eh fool?



>



Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
pesticides. Animals die.
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html

http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html