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Dave Smith > wrote:

> Crush on Lyle wrote:
> > Honey by definition is vegan because it is derived directly from
> > animals. But many vegans (or people who claim to be vegans, if you get
> > off on identifying hypocrisy in all forms) don't consider it a major
> > transgression to eat honey and do so. Many vegans, believe it or not,
> > are fairly reasonable people and realize that it is impossible to exist
> > on Earth without doing some damage to the environment and killing some
> > lifeforms. They still prefer to minimize the damage. Why does it have
> > to be all or nothing?--commit suicide or eat meat everyday?

> Extremism seems to be what some people prefer. I would put milk products
> in the category as honey. You don't have kill a cow to get milk from it,
> though cows that stop producing usually end up in someone's oven.

And the calves they have to bear to keep them bearing milk are taken
from their mamas and become veal. It's a complicated cycle. I think
that most folks would feel worse about the way that those calves live
than about the loss of some bees, but that's just my own impression.

> > Only a dumbass vegan would say that veganism is a way of eating that
> > should be adopted all over the world, and should have been practiced by
> > everyone in the past. It's only viable in a society with the means such
> > that people can survive without eating animal products.

> The vegans I have known would never espouse it as a way of life for
> everyone. It's a rebellious sort of life style that differentiates them
> from the rest of the world.

Or it feels ethically right for them. Even at my strictest vegan
moments, I never told anyone else what they should do, and I don't feel
rebellious about it. I'm a simple person trying to live the most
ethical and joyful life I can manage. My food choices are a part of
that for me, but I don't have any feelings at all about what others
should choose regarding food (or, really, much else).

> > There a lot of proselytizing vegetarians and vegans whose behavior is
> > hypocritical, but I think it's unfair to denounce all of them. (I, by
> > the way, am neither vegan nor vegetarian. But I don't resent those who
> > are. I don't understand why so many people seem to take it as a personal
> > affront.)

> I don't take it as a personal front. I just refuse to cater to them. I
> once had a vegan show up at our place for a Christmas gathering. My
> nephew's daughter, unbeknownst to me, was (temporarily) a vegan. I didn't
> know she was a vegan and I didn't know that she was coming. Her father had
> put some vegan goodies together for her but forgot them at home. As we were
> trying to put dinner for 16 on the table my wife was running around trying
> to find something that would suit her diet. This same girl, just a year
> and a half later, was sitting across from me at a brunch buffet chowing
> down on a plate full of ham, eggs, chicken and fish. Just like every other
> vegetarian I have ever known she went back to the pleasures of eating
> flesh.

I have known lifelong vegetarians, but to your example I say that that
girl was being extremely rude by not alerting you beforehand that she
wished special dietary considerations, and your wife was a saint for
being such a wonderful host.