"Digger" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:53:07 GMT, "John Coleman" > wrote:
> >"Digger" > wrote in message
...
> >> On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 00:10:50 -0400, "magnulus"
>wrote:
> >>
> >> > Isn't a human an animal,
> >>
> >> We are mammals by virtue of the female of our species
> >> having mammary glands. (thank you, Lord)
> >>
> >> >so wouldn't human breast milk be an "animal
> >> >byproduct"?
> >>
> >> Yes, and therefore a non-vegan source of food.
> >
> >incorrect - you need to start with a valid definition of veganism, then
work
> >from there
>
> Milk is an animal product and thereby non-vegan by default.

incorrect - please start with the right defiition

as stated befo
"Today, the Society remains as determined as ever to promote vegan
lifestyles - that is, ways of living that seek to exclude, as far as is
possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of animals for food,
clothing or any other purpose. "
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/about_us/

> Then, a person who nourishes himself on expressed human
> milk and placentas is living on a vegan diet, is he?

According to the original definition above yes, but not according to the
traditional practices of vegans. As with Islam, there is Islam the religion
and the traditions of Islamists. In practical terms vegans avoid animal
products because exploitation is usually inherent.

> They give up their milk quite voluntarily, and there's no cruelty
> or exploitation involved in relieving them of it, so why isn't it
> vegan fare while human milk is?

Already explained. Cows do not volunteer their milk, it is all part of a
cruel system of exploitation and extermination.

Distress to Young Calf & Mother
The harsh reality is that to produce milk, a cow must have a calf. To
maximise production, each calf is taken from its mother within 24-48 hours
of birth. Calves would naturally suckle for 6-12 months.

Separation is a distressing process as mother and calf form a strong
maternal bond. Dairy cow husbandry expert, Professor John Webster described
the removal of the calf as the "most potentially distressing incident in the
life of the dairy cow". Webster points out that "the cow will submit herself
to considerable personal discomfort or risk to nourish and protect her
calf". [6] Examples of this are cows that have escaped and travelled several
miles to find their own calf after it has been sold on to another farm. [7]

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/ani.../dairy_cow.php

> Exactly. It's very common for cows to make their own way
> to the milking parlour for just that very reason; to volunteer it
> up so as to relieve themselves. There's nothing inherently cruel
> or exploitative about relieving a cow of it's milk, John. That
> being so, why isn't it vegan fare if cruelty and exploitation
> aren't involved in its production?

see the above - cruelty and exploitation are involved in milk production (if
you could synthesise milk in a lab from non animal sources, I guess that
would be vegan, but I expect not environmentally friendly)

> What if calves weren't taken and made to suffer - would
> the milk from its mother qualify as vegan fare?

This question is of little practical value - we deal with the system that
DOES exist. But the answer would still be no IMO, as veganism is mainly
about stopping exploitation. As we cannot ascertain the intentions of other
animals, then it is hard to be in a position where we can reason that we are
not exploiting them, that is that they are consciously consenting as equals.

Chattel slaves go to work to avoid the pain of a beating, and cows to avoid
the pain of milk excess buildup (that their calves should relieve) - in both
cases although very different, fundamentally the situation is one of fear
and exploitation.

I submit that if they gave a cow pain killers so it didn't feel that its
udders were full, it would not turn up at the milk parlour and "volunteer"
its milk. This suggestion that cows "volunteer" milk is absurd - a confusion
of similarity and equivalents. One does not "volunteer" when one is
compelled through pain or fear of pain.

John