On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:34:44 -0700, Dutch > wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:22:43 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 20:39:09 -0700, Dutch > wrote:
>>
>>>Fidem Turbare, the non-existent atheist goddess wrote:
>>>
>>>> The fact is that humans are natural predators, and eating meat is a
>>>> normal life experience for most people. The problem is that many food
>>>> animals are raised and slaughtered without regard for their comfort
>>>> and pain, which I suspect is the crux of the issue.
>>>
>>>I agree with everything you said, except that animal welfare is not part
>>>of the issue in the debate between dh@ and everyone else. He tries to
>>>make it appear that it is, but that's just one of his smokescreens.
>>
>> That's a blatant lie since I refer to animals who have lives of negative
>>value as well as those of positive value.
>
>Nope, it is the truth.

Obviously I refer to animals who have lives of negative value as well as
those of positive value. Why do you want to lie about that fact, can't you say?

>>>The
>>>crux if his position is that users of animals and animal products should
>>>take pride in the fact that those animals "get to experience life"
>>
>> Try presenting some example of me telling people they should take pride in
>>it. You can't meaning that you lied again, which is pretty much what you do. I
>>DO encourage people to give the animals' lives as much or more consideration
>>than their deaths though, which eliminationists hate because and only because
>>doing so works against the elimination objective.
>>
>>>and
>>>conversely vegans ("eliminationists") as he calls them) do not sponsor
>>>animals getting to experience life.
>>
>> · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
>>wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
>>buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
>>What they try to avoid are products which provide life
>>(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
>>to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
>>in order to be successful:
>>
>>tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
>>filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
>>insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
>>heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
>>gelatin capsules, adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
>>plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
>>wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings
>>
>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
>>as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
>>their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
>>animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
>>ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
>>future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
>>livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
>>consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
>>being vegan.
>> From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
>>steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
>>get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
>>over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
>>get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
>>machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
>>draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
>>likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
>>derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
>>contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
>>better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·