On Apr 28, 1:00*pm, "Dutch" > wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote in message
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> > On Apr 27, 8:06 pm, "Dutch" > wrote:
> >> "Rupert" > wrote
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> >> >> >>> Yes, there is, based on observation of primates like Koko the
> >> >> >>> gorilla
> >> >> >>> who have been taught sign language,
>
> >> >> >> Does not demonstrate that anything "matters to her."
>
> >> >> > Of course things matter to Koko,
>
> >> >> They don't. *She has no awareness that there is a world, that she will
> >> >> some day no longer be in it.
>
> >> > She does understand the concept of death,
>
> >> On what do you base this?
>
> > She has discussions about it with her caregivers.
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> They don't know what she is thinking, if anything.
>

How do you know?

> >> > and she is aware of various
> >> > aspects of the world just as you and I are
>
> >> No, not like that, human awareness is not like non-human awareness. <I
> >> was
> >> going to elaborate but I shouldn't have to>
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> > I didn't say that her awareness was similar to ours in every respect.
> > I said it was a property we had in common, which is true.
>
> So what? Fruit flies are aware of various aspects of the world too.
>

Ball claimed that animals are not aware of the world, which is obvious
rubbish. You may think it is a trivial point, if so take up the matter
with Ball who brought up the subject.

> > Also, her
> > awareness of the world is quite similar to what Ball's son's awareness
> > of the world was at the age of two.
>
> So you repeat the AMC again and again, but that doesn't make it a valid
> argument.
>

I didn't repeat the AMC, I made a correct assertion. If Ball wants to
claim that Koko is not aware of the world then he should also claim
that his son was not aware of the world at the age of two.

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> >> > and just as your son was
> >> > when he was two years old.
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> >> His son possessed the capability to become a PhD in mathematics or a
> >> great
> >> philosopher or musician, the ape is permanently two years old.
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> > I think Ball's son is retarded, isn't he?
>
> > Koko is learning the letters of the alphabet, she is not "permanently
> > two years old". She has less potential for cognitive development than
> > Ball's son, even if I am correct that Ball's son is retarded. So what?
>
> Cognitively impaired humans may still possess the capability of higher
> cognition, so we err on the safe side.
>

What's "higher cognition" exactly?

> >> > She has similar linguistic and cognitive
> >> > abilities to your son at the age of two. It is extremely obvious that
> >> > things matter to her, and that she is aware of the world. She also has
> >> > some understanding of the concept of death, although she becomes
> >> > fidgety and uncomfortable when asked to discuss her own death. It is
> >> > not clear to what extent she is aware of her own mortality.
>
> >> All unsupported supposition.
>
> > No.
>
> Yes, the interpretations of her trainers have been discredited by other
> researchers. She mimics them.

Which other researchers?