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Old 28-04-2012, 04:00 AM posted to talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,misc.rural,uk.politics.animals
Dutch Dutch is offline
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Default ANIMAL RIGHTS BILL 1 - Tom Regan speaks.

"Rupert" wrote in message
...
On Apr 27, 8:06 pm, "Dutch" wrote:
"Rupert" wrote

Yes, there is, based on observation of primates like Koko the
gorilla
who have been taught sign language,


Does not demonstrate that anything "matters to her."


Of course things matter to Koko,


They don't. She has no awareness that there is a world, that she will
some day no longer be in it.


She does understand the concept of death,


On what do you base this?


She has discussions about it with her caregivers.


They don't know what she is thinking, if anything.

and she is aware of various
aspects of the world just as you and I are


No, not like that, human awareness is not like non-human awareness. I
was
going to elaborate but I shouldn't have to


I didn't say that her awareness was similar to ours in every respect.
I said it was a property we had in common, which is true.


So what? Fruit flies are aware of various aspects of the world too.

Also, her
awareness of the world is quite similar to what Ball's son's awareness
of the world was at the age of two.


So you repeat the AMC again and again, but that doesn't make it a valid
argument.

and just as your son was
when he was two years old.


His son possessed the capability to become a PhD in mathematics or a
great
philosopher or musician, the ape is permanently two years old.


I think Ball's son is retarded, isn't he?

Koko is learning the letters of the alphabet, she is not "permanently
two years old". She has less potential for cognitive development than
Ball's son, even if I am correct that Ball's son is retarded. So what?


Cognitively impaired humans may still possess the capability of higher
cognition, so we err on the safe side.


She has similar linguistic and cognitive
abilities to your son at the age of two. It is extremely obvious that
things matter to her, and that she is aware of the world. She also has
some understanding of the concept of death, although she becomes
fidgety and uncomfortable when asked to discuss her own death. It is
not clear to what extent she is aware of her own mortality.


All unsupported supposition.


No.

Yes, the interpretations of her trainers have been discredited by other
researchers. She mimics them.