suffering reduction
On Apr 8, 11:12*am, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/8/2012 9:52 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> > On Apr 8, 5:22 pm, George > *wrote:
> >> On 4/8/2012 1:50 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>> On Apr 7, 6:04 pm, George > * *wrote:
> >>>> On 4/7/2012 1:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>> On Apr 6, 11:47 pm, George > * * *wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze]
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * * * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms".
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion?
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not?
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have not,
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You certainly appear to be
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today?
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> >>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>
> >>>>>>>>> What did you do?
>
> >>>>>>>> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.)
>
> >>>>>>>> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent.
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> >>>>>>> So you think I shouldn't have children then?
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> >>>>>> Probably not.
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> >>>>> So, what moral lessons were you trying to teach your son?
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> >>>> You really shouldn't have children, woopert. *Because of your
> >>>> self-absorption, you'd most likely be a horrible parent.
>
> >>> That's an interesting view you've got. What led you to the conclusion
> >>> that I was self-absorbed?
>
> >> Your statements here.
>
> > Which ones?
>
> All.
Cite an example.
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