suffering reduction
On 4/8/2012 9:52 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 8, 5:22 pm, George > wrote:
>> On 4/8/2012 1:50 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>> On Apr 7, 6:04 pm, George > wrote:
>>>> On 4/7/2012 1:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>> On Apr 6, 11:47 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze]
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms".
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not?
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have not,
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. You're just trying to waste my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You certainly appear to be
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today?
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>
>>>>>>>>> What did you do?
>>
>>>>>>>> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.)
>>
>>>>>>>> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent.
>>
>>>>>>> So you think I shouldn't have children then?
>>
>>>>>> Probably not.
>>
>>>>> So, what moral lessons were you trying to teach your son?
>>
>>>> You really shouldn't have children, woopert. Because of your
>>>> self-absorption, you'd most likely be a horrible parent.
>>
>>> That's an interesting view you've got. What led you to the conclusion
>>> that I was self-absorbed?
>>
>> Your statements here.
>
> Which ones?
All.
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