On Apr 6, 3:57*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> > On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > *wrote:
> >> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * *wrote:
> >>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * *wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze]
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much
> >>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we
> >>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm
> >>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not
> >>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their
> >>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really
> >>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which
> >>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an
> >>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined
> >>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire
> >>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really
> >>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All
> >>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter
> >>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which
> >>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be
> >>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage
> >>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms".
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not
> >>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what
> >>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in
> >>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and
> >>>>>>>>>> doing nothing.
>
> >>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of
> >>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products?
>
> >>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before.
>
> >>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the
> >>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food,
> >>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard
> >>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion?
>
> >>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence.
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> >>>>> Why not?
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> >>>> Already explained.
>
> >>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested
> >>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence.
>
> >> I sure have.
>
> > You will not substantiate this claim.
>
> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time.

You have not, and you will not, because you cannot. My remark was
correct: you have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my
suggested conclusion is not supported by the evidence.