On 25/03/2012 18:17, Derek wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:16:33 +0100, > wrote:
>
>> On 25/03/2012 12:19, Derek wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 02:22:30 -0700, > wrote:
>>>
>>> []
>>>> Raising animals for food is not evil
>>>
>>> You believe it is.
>>>
>>> "Because farm animals are sentient beings, and
>>> forcing them through this mass production
>>> assembly line "concentration camp" process is
>>> cruel. We put innocent farm animals through
>>> processes of suffering and early death that we
>>> wouldn't subject the most heinous human
>>> criminal to."
>>> Dutch Dec 27 2000 http://tinyurl.com/6wjl2o2
>>>
>>> There's not a single issue raised here in all the years you've been
>>> trying to bash those you've tried but failed to aspire to that you
>>> haven't lied about.
>>>
>>> Note to Glen.
>>>
>>> Dutch lies about everything. Everything! He first came here claiming
>>> to be an advocate for the proposition of animal rights.
>>>
>>> *Animal Rights.*
>>>
>>> "I am an animal rights believer."
>>> Dutch 12 Feb 2001 http://tinyurl.com/4ybt3
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "My contention is that 'animal rights' have sprouted
>>> like branches from the tree of "HUMAN RIGHTS".
>>> They are derivative. They reflect from a) what our
>>> own rights are b) to what degree and how we value
>>> the animal or species."
>>> Dutch 23 Feb 2001 http://tinyurl.com/3ljkh
>>>
>>> But within just a few months he started writing
>>> things like;
>>>
>>> "They have no rights because the very idea of
>>> a world of animals with rights is a laugh."
>>> Dutch 7 Aug 2001 http://tinyurl.com/6wffc
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "Well, I don't believe in the idea of animal rights, I
>>> find it irrational …."
>>> Dutch 28 Aug 2002 http://tinyurl.com/47wy4
>>>
>>> But then he switched back again, accepting the
>>> proposition of animal rights and claiming to have
>>> signed a petition in support for it to the Canadian
>>> government.
>>>
>>> "I recently signed a petition online supporting
>>> an 'animal rights' bill in Canadian parliament."
>>> Dutch 18 Sept 2003 http://tinyurl.com/5aaxn
>>>
>>> and later;
>>>
>>> "Rights for animals exist because human rights
>>> exist. If human rights did not exist, rights for
>>> animals would not exist."
>>> Dutch Sun, 18 Apr 2004 http://tinyurl.com/3s6pz
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "If they are inherent in humans then why are
>>> they not in some way inherent in all animals?
>>> I think rights are a human invention which we
>>> apply widely to humans and in specific ways in
>>> certain situations to other animals."
>>> ...
>>> "There is no coherent reason why humans ought
>>> to be prohibited from extending some form of
>>> rights towards animals in their care."
>>> ...
>>> "I am firmly on flat ground. Human created rights,
>>> we apply them to all humans at birth, and we apply
>>> versions of them to certain animals in limited ways
>>> within our sphere of influence."
>>> Dutch 18 May 2005 http://tinyurl.com/bu7nb
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "I measure my right to be free from physical assault
>>> by looking if laws and sanctions exist against anyone
>>> who would assault me. Such laws and sanctions exist
>>> to protect domestic animals from abuse, so I must
>>> conclude that they hold rights against humans who
>>> would abuse them."
>>> Dutch Sep 20 2005 http://tinyurl.com/9g3yp
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "Animals can be "moral patients", in a similar
>>> way as minor children or people in comas.
>>> They can hold rights against us, but we can't
>>> hold rights against them."
>>> Dutch 24 Sep 2005 http://tinyurl.com/cpxhx
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "I would hold in fact that this is so plausible that apes
>>> should be granted basic rights."
>>> Dutch 7 July 2007 http://tinyurl.com/328k8h
>>>
>>> And then back again,
>>>
>>> "I'm not an ARA."
>>> Dutch 19 Jul 2007 http://tinyurl.com/253nlg
>>>
>>> And back again
>>>
>>> "I believe that it is defensible to say that an animal
>>> that is protected by laws and morals from being
>>> attacked in some way by a human holds a right
>>> against humans."
>>> Dutch 16 Oct 2011 http://tinyurl.com/3rdntg8
>>>
>>> *His diet on factory-farmed meat:*
>>>
>>> In the year 2000 Dutch claimed to have become a
>>> vegetarian 20 years ago.
>>>
>>> "i am a vegetarian because it IS the most healthy
>>> diet FOR ME. i cured a bunch of chronic health
>>> problems by quitting meat 20 years ago."
>>> Dutch Nov 14 2000 http://tinyurl.com/cga8x
>>>
>>> But then a year later he claimed to have been a
>>> vegetarian for only 15 years when in fact according
>>> to his earlier quote it should then have been 21 years.
>>>
>>> "I am a 15 year lacto-ovo vegetarian, a diet I chose for
>>> health reasons. Meat has certain properties that disagree
>>> with me, I don't know exactly what it is, but it's OK,
>>> because I enjoy spectacularly good health ...."
>>> "Dutch" 19 Mar 2001 http://tinyurl.com/4pqjq
>>>
>>> And then only a week later the forgetful liar claimed
>>> to have been vegetarian for 17 years.
>>>
>>> "I can't even look at meat anymore after 17 years .."
>>> Dutch 27 Mar 2001 http://tinyurl.com/5emp2
>>>
>>> So it's certain that he's always lied about when and
>>> for how long he was a vegetarian. Now let's look at
>>> his reasons given for why he became a vegetarian.
>>>
>>> "I find sufficient evidence of poor practises in
>>> commercial meat production that I refuse to
>>> eat meat produced in this way. In fact for this
>>> and health reasons I eat no meat at all."
>>> Dutch Dec 3 2000 http://tinyurl.com/d49aa
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "Since I cannot in all good conscience tolerate
>>> the treatment of animals in the mass meat
>>> industry I choose not not eat it."
>>> Dutch Dec 20 2000 http://tinyurl.com/9vc2o
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "Because farm animals are sentient beings, and
>>> forcing them through this mass production
>>> assembly line "concentration camp" process is
>>> cruel. We put innocent farm animals through
>>> processes of suffering and early death that we
>>> wouldn't subject the most heinous human
>>> criminal to."
>>> Dutch Dec 27 2000 http://tinyurl.com/6wjl2o2
>>>
>>> But those statements concerning his "good conscience"
>>> were obvious lies because he DOES eat meat from
>>> those factory farms he claimed to avoid.
>>>
>>> "I buy what is readily available, and I assume
>>> a lot of it comes from factory farms."
>>> [end]
>>> Dutch Dec 15 2003 http://tinyurl.com/8w25v
>>>
>>> [frlpwr to Dutch]
>>> > Why do you buy factory-farmed pork products?
>>> [Dutch]
>>> The same reason vegans buy factory farmed veggies,
>>> because they're there.
>>> [end]
>>> Dutch Jan 27 2004 http://tinyurl.com/8qhrf
>>>
>>> *Logic of the larder:*
>>>
>>> > > [start Dutch]
>>> > > Pigs and cows are domesticated animals that
>>> > > we create, breed and raise, giving them a life
>>> > > as David (dh@) says, in exchange for the use of
>>> > > their hides. We give them life. They give us their
>>> > > lives, and our lifestyles. It's a mutually beneficial
>>> > > contract, which I believe includes treating them
>>> > > with respect. The only contract I have with mice
>>> > > is you get out of my grain and I won't kill you.
>>> > > Isn't that the way YOU look at mice? Maybe
>>> > > we're not so different after all.
>>> Dutch 20 Jan 2001 http://tinyurl.com/34jzhm9
>>> > [Polly]
>>> > Although we know there's no literal "contract", I
>>> > do like your way of stating the fact that both humans
>>> > and animals benefit from the animals' domestication.
>>> [Dutch]
>>> Thanks. I am beginning to find myself quoting David..
>>> who'da thunk???
>>> Dutch 21 Jan 2001 http://tinyurl.com/2jdml
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "The cow is our benefactor in a mutually beneficial
>>> partnership."
>>> Dutch http://tinyurl.com/2wlu8
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "Here's how I see it...
>>> The fact that we raise them to kill them for food places
>>> us irrevocably in their debt. By treating them kindly and
>>> killing them humanely we may only approach making it
>>> a square deal, but we can never get there."
>>> Dutch Feb 26 2006 http://tinyurl.com/jhcg8
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "The LoL is the belief that because by using animal
>>> products we indirectly cause animals to come into
>>> existence that we are entitled to use these animals'
>>> existence (their lives) as a defence against critics of
>>> the use of animal products.
>>> ……
>>> The LoL advocate can still claim to be doing something
>>> morally admirable by eating a burger."
>>> Dutch July 3 2010 http://tinyurl.com/387kk4u
>>>
>>> *Collateral Deaths:*
>>>
>>> "There is a whole different mindset between tolerating
>>> collateral death in your life and seeking out direct
>>> sacrifice for your subsistence."
>>> Dutch Aug 26 2000 http://tinyurl.com/7dduf
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "The recognition of collateral deaths does one thing, it
>>> enables you to dismiss blanket claims by veg*ns that
>>> their diet causes no deaths or animal suffering. Antis
>>> attempt to parlay this into completely discrediting veg*n
>>> diet claims. Since the phenomenon is virtually
>>> unmeasurable the argument lacks fundamental credibility.
>>> It therefore should not detract from veg*n beliefs that the
>>> v*gan diet causes less animal suffering."
>>> Dutch Dec 13 2000 http://tinyurl.com/yw2zf
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "It's not that easy banmilk. Nobody doubts that animals
>>> die in agriculture except people in complete denial. What
>>> you must do is somehow rationalize that 'fact' with your
>>> philosophy. It's not hard to do really, just admit you don't
>>> care much about those animals. You don't do you? I don't."
>>> Dutch 6 Feb 2001 http://tinyurl.com/53pjh
>>>
>>> As we can plainly see, Dutch doesn't believe that the
>>> collateral deaths argument carries any weight against
>>> vegans; he's merely trying to attack those he tried but
>>> failed to aspire to.
>>>
>>> *Delusions:*
>>>
>>> Dutch is a self-confessed delusional who invents things all the
>>> time. When first arriving here he did so while seemingly in
>>> support for the proposition of animal rights, but that facade
>>> was soon blown away, and now he tries to insist that the
>>> genuine proponents of it here must be as deluded as he is.
>>>
>>> "I did find deluding myself quite comfortable, after
>>> all who was it hurting?"
>>> Dutch as 'apostate' Mar 17 2002 http://tinyurl.com/cmhpo
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "The reason I left AR is precisely that I DON'T
>>> feel comfortable *knowingly* deluding myself.
>>> Dutch as 'apostate' Mar 19 2002 http://tinyurl.com/7ndj6
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "Deluding myself felt good"
>>> Dutch Jun 4 2005 http://tinyurl.com/94eq3
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "I do have some personal experience with cognitive
>>> dissonance, I experienced it, and at the point when
>>> I finally consciously confronted the underlying
>>> conflict I experienced a kind of physical discomfort
>>> in the brain, a dizziness and a buzzing in my ears,
>>> followed shortly by a kind of feeling of relief and
>>> elevated mental clarity. The brain will attempt to
>>> punish you to stop you from threatening the existing
>>> belief"
>>> Dutch 29 Jul 2007 http://tinyurl.com/3ahp69
>>>
>>> *Unethical Practices to Avoid:*
>>>
>>> Dutch lies about everything. Take a look at his categorical
>>> statements regarding the use of unethical treatments and
>>> how he lies his way out of standing by them by praying to
>>> God for his failure.
>>>
>>> "I categorically refuse to use any treatment shown
>>> to have been developed using human subjects
>>> against their will."
>>> Dutch Nov 26 2002 http://tinyurl.com/ppzvj
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "If modern medicine were built on the use of
>>> unwilling humans, I would certainly refuse it."
>>> Dutch Nov 28 2002 http://tinyurl.com/sx9po
>>>
>>> But, after being told that most modern practices were
>>> perfected using unethical means, he acknowledged this
>>> fact by stating;
>>>
>>> "I know now that abuse of human subjects forms part of the
>>> history of medical research, but I don't know when or how
>>> much or which treatments were involved. I feel like I ought
>>> to try to research the history of each treatment and medicine
>>> before using it, surely that is the right thing to do is it not?"
>>> Dutch Nov 28 2002 http://tinyurl.com/f5wgz
>>>
>>> To keep his integrity by avoiding these unethical practices
>>> like he earlier promised, I told him he ought to write a list
>>> of the treatments to avoid, but he collapsed instead and
>>> simpered.
>>>
>>> [Me]
>>> > Also, what efforts have you made to list the *on-going"
>>> > unethical practices to avoid?
>>> [Dutch]
>>> None at all. I have already said, I can't face the task.
>>> [end]
>>> Dutch Nov 30 2002 http://tinyurl.com/m4a4e
>>>
>>> I pressed him further to make that list or risk being
>>> labeled a hypocrite, but in desperation he opted to
>>> beg God for forgiveness instead.
>>>
>>> [Me]
>>> "You now know that humans were killed to perfect your
>>> treatments. If you choose to believe that these violations
>>> transcend to you as an accessory after the fact you must
>>> avoid being hypocritical and stand by your ethical stance
>>> by avoiding every treatment that was perfected using
>>> human subjects against their will."
>>> [Dutch]
>>> "I don't have the strength. I choose to accept that some
>>> humans may have been wronged in the development of
>>> my treatments. If there is a god, I beg his forgiveness for
>>> my frailty."
>>> Dutch Nov 30 2002 http://tinyurl.com/fz9nl
>>>
>>> Dutch is an unethical liar with no backbone who makes
>>> categorical statements only to then dismiss them when
>>> pushed to stand by them.
>>>
>>> *His kids:*
>>>
>>> "The land goes back in my wife's family quite a few
>>> generations and making something like this out of it
>>> would be grand, **we have no kids** to leave it to."
>>> Dutch Oct 22 2001 http://tinyurl.com/yk8qoh
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "My wife and I had two kids .. "
>>> Dutch Jun 30 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ssm99
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "As I have mentioned here before, failure to thrive is
>>> one of vegetarianism's dirty little secrets. I have
>>> experienced it first- hand, my family returned to eating
>>> meat after 18 years as vegetarians because of it."
>>> Dutch Aug 5 2004 http://tinyurl.com/yd5u5a
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "During my wife's pregnancies *I* ended up doing
>>> most of the housework ..."
>>> Dutch Jan 19 2006 http://tinyurl.com/yz4dsw
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "No child is born into ideal circumstances. Were you?
>>> I sure wasn't. My wife wasn't, neither were my kids."
>>> Dutch Feb 20 2006 http://tinyurl.com/yb4dhz
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "I don't want my kids seeing cancer surgery or videos
>>> of assaults or anything that might cause them undue
>>> emotional distress. They're children."
>>> Dutch Jun 30 2006 http://tinyurl.com/ybu8kq
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> "I never forced my kids to be vegetarians, and they
>>> weren't, [because I never had kids].
>>> Dutch Oct 17 2006 http://tinyurl.com/y9trhd
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> [start - Pearl to Dutch]
>>> > Of course I DON'T believe you. No one does. How could we.
>>> > You LIED about having CHILDREN, for heaven's sake. GLL!
>>> [Dutch replied]
>>> Nobody tells the whole truth all the time, and I advise strongly
>>> not to try to claim otherwise.
>>> [end]
>>> Dutch Oct 23 2006 http://tinyurl.com/6psp6h7
>>>
>>> *Abortion:*
>>>
>>> "In fact I have been a pro-choice activist, my former
>>> wife was a nurse in an abortion clinic for a time with
>>> Henry Morgentaler prior to Roe v Wade. She faced
>>> charges for it. My current wife has had an abortion."
>>> Dutch 7 May 2006 http://tinyurl.com/28oxdg
>>>
>>> But
>>>
>>> [start - A.M. to Dutch]
>>> > Does your wife agree with your principles? What if
>>> > she didn't? Would you divorce her if she aborted your
>>> > child? If your wife mistakenly got pregnant and simply
>>> > did not want to committ to the full term and subsequent
>>> > child bearing, would you leave her?
>>> [Dutch]
>>> My wife would never kill a member of our family, not
>>> before birth, not after. The idea is unthinkable.
>>> [end]
>>> Dutch 4 Dec 2002 http://tinyurl.com/3dz22p
>>>
>>> As we can plainly see, Dutch lies about every issue that gets raised
>>> here and in other newsgroups, so don't fall for a single word he has
>>> to say on anything. He's a self-confessed liar.
>>
>> *TOTALLY BUSTED*
>
> Absolutely. And all that written by someone who wrote,
>
> "You will never, ever catch me in a lie, because I don't."
> Dutch Oct 16 2006 http://tinyurl.com/yxt76l
>
> and
>
> "All I want to do is get the respect that I feel I am due
> from vegetarians."
> Dutch 27 Dec 2006 http://tinyurl.com/2vg4bq

*LOL*

>> What's left here Derek?
>
> Not a lot. I'll grant you that.
>
>> Dutch - a liar with no credibility, and Jonathan Ball -
>> another liar with no credibility who tells people he's got a Ph.D in economics, and a simple-minded
>> poor fool who tries to tries to justify cruelty by saying animals benefit from it. *LOL* There's not
>> a credible anti left to argue with.
>
> So who ARE you, Glen, and why did you copy and paste parts of my
> private email to you here?

My sincere apologies Derek. I didn't mean any damage by it. Guess we got off to a bad start, eh?
Sorry :-)