View Single Post
  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
Glen Glen is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default "vegan" arrogance and egotism

On 25/03/2012 12:19, Derek wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 02:22:30 -0700, > wrote:
>
> []
>> Raising animals for food is not evil

>
> You believe it is.
>
> "Because farm animals are sentient beings, and
> forcing them through this mass production
> assembly line "concentration camp" process is
> cruel. We put innocent farm animals through
> processes of suffering and early death that we
> wouldn't subject the most heinous human
> criminal to."
> Dutch Dec 27 2000 http://tinyurl.com/6wjl2o2
>
> There's not a single issue raised here in all the years you've been
> trying to bash those you've tried but failed to aspire to that you
> haven't lied about.
>
> Note to Glen.
>
> Dutch lies about everything. Everything! He first came here claiming
> to be an advocate for the proposition of animal rights.
>
> *Animal Rights.*
>
> "I am an animal rights believer."
> Dutch 12 Feb 2001 http://tinyurl.com/4ybt3
>
> and
>
> "My contention is that 'animal rights' have sprouted
> like branches from the tree of "HUMAN RIGHTS".
> They are derivative. They reflect from a) what our
> own rights are b) to what degree and how we value
> the animal or species."
> Dutch 23 Feb 2001 http://tinyurl.com/3ljkh
>
> But within just a few months he started writing
> things like;
>
> "They have no rights because the very idea of
> a world of animals with rights is a laugh."
> Dutch 7 Aug 2001 http://tinyurl.com/6wffc
>
> and
>
> "Well, I don't believe in the idea of animal rights, I
> find it irrational …."
> Dutch 28 Aug 2002 http://tinyurl.com/47wy4
>
> But then he switched back again, accepting the
> proposition of animal rights and claiming to have
> signed a petition in support for it to the Canadian
> government.
>
> "I recently signed a petition online supporting
> an 'animal rights' bill in Canadian parliament."
> Dutch 18 Sept 2003 http://tinyurl.com/5aaxn
>
> and later;
>
> "Rights for animals exist because human rights
> exist. If human rights did not exist, rights for
> animals would not exist."
> Dutch Sun, 18 Apr 2004 http://tinyurl.com/3s6pz
>
> and
>
> "If they are inherent in humans then why are
> they not in some way inherent in all animals?
> I think rights are a human invention which we
> apply widely to humans and in specific ways in
> certain situations to other animals."
> ...
> "There is no coherent reason why humans ought
> to be prohibited from extending some form of
> rights towards animals in their care."
> ...
> "I am firmly on flat ground. Human created rights,
> we apply them to all humans at birth, and we apply
> versions of them to certain animals in limited ways
> within our sphere of influence."
> Dutch 18 May 2005 http://tinyurl.com/bu7nb
>
> and
>
> "I measure my right to be free from physical assault
> by looking if laws and sanctions exist against anyone
> who would assault me. Such laws and sanctions exist
> to protect domestic animals from abuse, so I must
> conclude that they hold rights against humans who
> would abuse them."
> Dutch Sep 20 2005 http://tinyurl.com/9g3yp
>
> and
>
> "Animals can be "moral patients", in a similar
> way as minor children or people in comas.
> They can hold rights against us, but we can't
> hold rights against them."
> Dutch 24 Sep 2005 http://tinyurl.com/cpxhx
>
> and
>
> "I would hold in fact that this is so plausible that apes
> should be granted basic rights."
> Dutch 7 July 2007 http://tinyurl.com/328k8h
>
> And then back again,
>
> "I'm not an ARA."
> Dutch 19 Jul 2007 http://tinyurl.com/253nlg
>
> And back again
>
> "I believe that it is defensible to say that an animal
> that is protected by laws and morals from being
> attacked in some way by a human holds a right
> against humans."
> Dutch 16 Oct 2011 http://tinyurl.com/3rdntg8
>
> *His diet on factory-farmed meat:*
>
> In the year 2000 Dutch claimed to have become a
> vegetarian 20 years ago.
>
> "i am a vegetarian because it IS the most healthy
> diet FOR ME. i cured a bunch of chronic health
> problems by quitting meat 20 years ago."
> Dutch Nov 14 2000 http://tinyurl.com/cga8x
>
> But then a year later he claimed to have been a
> vegetarian for only 15 years when in fact according
> to his earlier quote it should then have been 21 years.
>
> "I am a 15 year lacto-ovo vegetarian, a diet I chose for
> health reasons. Meat has certain properties that disagree
> with me, I don't know exactly what it is, but it's OK,
> because I enjoy spectacularly good health ...."
> "Dutch" 19 Mar 2001 http://tinyurl.com/4pqjq
>
> And then only a week later the forgetful liar claimed
> to have been vegetarian for 17 years.
>
> "I can't even look at meat anymore after 17 years .."
> Dutch 27 Mar 2001 http://tinyurl.com/5emp2
>
> So it's certain that he's always lied about when and
> for how long he was a vegetarian. Now let's look at
> his reasons given for why he became a vegetarian.
>
> "I find sufficient evidence of poor practises in
> commercial meat production that I refuse to
> eat meat produced in this way. In fact for this
> and health reasons I eat no meat at all."
> Dutch Dec 3 2000 http://tinyurl.com/d49aa
>
> and
>
> "Since I cannot in all good conscience tolerate
> the treatment of animals in the mass meat
> industry I choose not not eat it."
> Dutch Dec 20 2000 http://tinyurl.com/9vc2o
>
> and
>
> "Because farm animals are sentient beings, and
> forcing them through this mass production
> assembly line "concentration camp" process is
> cruel. We put innocent farm animals through
> processes of suffering and early death that we
> wouldn't subject the most heinous human
> criminal to."
> Dutch Dec 27 2000 http://tinyurl.com/6wjl2o2
>
> But those statements concerning his "good conscience"
> were obvious lies because he DOES eat meat from
> those factory farms he claimed to avoid.
>
> "I buy what is readily available, and I assume
> a lot of it comes from factory farms."
> [end]
> Dutch Dec 15 2003 http://tinyurl.com/8w25v
>
> [frlpwr to Dutch]
> > Why do you buy factory-farmed pork products?

> [Dutch]
> The same reason vegans buy factory farmed veggies,
> because they're there.
> [end]
> Dutch Jan 27 2004 http://tinyurl.com/8qhrf
>
> *Logic of the larder:*
>
> > > [start Dutch]
> > > Pigs and cows are domesticated animals that
> > > we create, breed and raise, giving them a life
> > > as David (dh@) says, in exchange for the use of
> > > their hides. We give them life. They give us their
> > > lives, and our lifestyles. It's a mutually beneficial
> > > contract, which I believe includes treating them
> > > with respect. The only contract I have with mice
> > > is you get out of my grain and I won't kill you.
> > > Isn't that the way YOU look at mice? Maybe
> > > we're not so different after all.

> Dutch 20 Jan 2001 http://tinyurl.com/34jzhm9
> > [Polly]
> > Although we know there's no literal "contract", I
> > do like your way of stating the fact that both humans
> > and animals benefit from the animals' domestication.

> [Dutch]
> Thanks. I am beginning to find myself quoting David..
> who'da thunk???
> Dutch 21 Jan 2001 http://tinyurl.com/2jdml
>
> and
>
> "The cow is our benefactor in a mutually beneficial
> partnership."
> Dutch http://tinyurl.com/2wlu8
>
> and
>
> "Here's how I see it...
> The fact that we raise them to kill them for food places
> us irrevocably in their debt. By treating them kindly and
> killing them humanely we may only approach making it
> a square deal, but we can never get there."
> Dutch Feb 26 2006 http://tinyurl.com/jhcg8
>
> and
>
> "The LoL is the belief that because by using animal
> products we indirectly cause animals to come into
> existence that we are entitled to use these animals'
> existence (their lives) as a defence against critics of
> the use of animal products.
> ……
> The LoL advocate can still claim to be doing something
> morally admirable by eating a burger."
> Dutch July 3 2010 http://tinyurl.com/387kk4u
>
> *Collateral Deaths:*
>
> "There is a whole different mindset between tolerating
> collateral death in your life and seeking out direct
> sacrifice for your subsistence."
> Dutch Aug 26 2000 http://tinyurl.com/7dduf
>
> and
>
> "The recognition of collateral deaths does one thing, it
> enables you to dismiss blanket claims by veg*ns that
> their diet causes no deaths or animal suffering. Antis
> attempt to parlay this into completely discrediting veg*n
> diet claims. Since the phenomenon is virtually
> unmeasurable the argument lacks fundamental credibility.
> It therefore should not detract from veg*n beliefs that the
> v*gan diet causes less animal suffering."
> Dutch Dec 13 2000 http://tinyurl.com/yw2zf
>
> and
>
> "It's not that easy banmilk. Nobody doubts that animals
> die in agriculture except people in complete denial. What
> you must do is somehow rationalize that 'fact' with your
> philosophy. It's not hard to do really, just admit you don't
> care much about those animals. You don't do you? I don't."
> Dutch 6 Feb 2001 http://tinyurl.com/53pjh
>
> As we can plainly see, Dutch doesn't believe that the
> collateral deaths argument carries any weight against
> vegans; he's merely trying to attack those he tried but
> failed to aspire to.
>
> *Delusions:*
>
> Dutch is a self-confessed delusional who invents things all the
> time. When first arriving here he did so while seemingly in
> support for the proposition of animal rights, but that facade
> was soon blown away, and now he tries to insist that the
> genuine proponents of it here must be as deluded as he is.
>
> "I did find deluding myself quite comfortable, after
> all who was it hurting?"
> Dutch as 'apostate' Mar 17 2002 http://tinyurl.com/cmhpo
>
> and
>
> "The reason I left AR is precisely that I DON'T
> feel comfortable *knowingly* deluding myself.
> Dutch as 'apostate' Mar 19 2002 http://tinyurl.com/7ndj6
>
> and
>
> "Deluding myself felt good"
> Dutch Jun 4 2005 http://tinyurl.com/94eq3
>
> and
>
> "I do have some personal experience with cognitive
> dissonance, I experienced it, and at the point when
> I finally consciously confronted the underlying
> conflict I experienced a kind of physical discomfort
> in the brain, a dizziness and a buzzing in my ears,
> followed shortly by a kind of feeling of relief and
> elevated mental clarity. The brain will attempt to
> punish you to stop you from threatening the existing
> belief"
> Dutch 29 Jul 2007 http://tinyurl.com/3ahp69
>
> *Unethical Practices to Avoid:*
>
> Dutch lies about everything. Take a look at his categorical
> statements regarding the use of unethical treatments and
> how he lies his way out of standing by them by praying to
> God for his failure.
>
> "I categorically refuse to use any treatment shown
> to have been developed using human subjects
> against their will."
> Dutch Nov 26 2002 http://tinyurl.com/ppzvj
>
> and
>
> "If modern medicine were built on the use of
> unwilling humans, I would certainly refuse it."
> Dutch Nov 28 2002 http://tinyurl.com/sx9po
>
> But, after being told that most modern practices were
> perfected using unethical means, he acknowledged this
> fact by stating;
>
> "I know now that abuse of human subjects forms part of the
> history of medical research, but I don't know when or how
> much or which treatments were involved. I feel like I ought
> to try to research the history of each treatment and medicine
> before using it, surely that is the right thing to do is it not?"
> Dutch Nov 28 2002 http://tinyurl.com/f5wgz
>
> To keep his integrity by avoiding these unethical practices
> like he earlier promised, I told him he ought to write a list
> of the treatments to avoid, but he collapsed instead and
> simpered.
>
> [Me]
> > Also, what efforts have you made to list the *on-going"
> > unethical practices to avoid?

> [Dutch]
> None at all. I have already said, I can't face the task.
> [end]
> Dutch Nov 30 2002 http://tinyurl.com/m4a4e
>
> I pressed him further to make that list or risk being
> labeled a hypocrite, but in desperation he opted to
> beg God for forgiveness instead.
>
> [Me]
> "You now know that humans were killed to perfect your
> treatments. If you choose to believe that these violations
> transcend to you as an accessory after the fact you must
> avoid being hypocritical and stand by your ethical stance
> by avoiding every treatment that was perfected using
> human subjects against their will."
> [Dutch]
> "I don't have the strength. I choose to accept that some
> humans may have been wronged in the development of
> my treatments. If there is a god, I beg his forgiveness for
> my frailty."
> Dutch Nov 30 2002 http://tinyurl.com/fz9nl
>
> Dutch is an unethical liar with no backbone who makes
> categorical statements only to then dismiss them when
> pushed to stand by them.
>
> *His kids:*
>
> "The land goes back in my wife's family quite a few
> generations and making something like this out of it
> would be grand, **we have no kids** to leave it to."
> Dutch Oct 22 2001 http://tinyurl.com/yk8qoh
>
> and
>
> "My wife and I had two kids .. "
> Dutch Jun 30 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ssm99
>
> and
>
> "As I have mentioned here before, failure to thrive is
> one of vegetarianism's dirty little secrets. I have
> experienced it first- hand, my family returned to eating
> meat after 18 years as vegetarians because of it."
> Dutch Aug 5 2004 http://tinyurl.com/yd5u5a
>
> and
>
> "During my wife's pregnancies *I* ended up doing
> most of the housework ..."
> Dutch Jan 19 2006 http://tinyurl.com/yz4dsw
>
> and
>
> "No child is born into ideal circumstances. Were you?
> I sure wasn't. My wife wasn't, neither were my kids."
> Dutch Feb 20 2006 http://tinyurl.com/yb4dhz
>
> and
>
> "I don't want my kids seeing cancer surgery or videos
> of assaults or anything that might cause them undue
> emotional distress. They're children."
> Dutch Jun 30 2006 http://tinyurl.com/ybu8kq
>
> and
>
> "I never forced my kids to be vegetarians, and they
> weren't, [because I never had kids].
> Dutch Oct 17 2006 http://tinyurl.com/y9trhd
>
> and
>
> [start - Pearl to Dutch]
> > Of course I DON'T believe you. No one does. How could we.
> > You LIED about having CHILDREN, for heaven's sake. GLL!

> [Dutch replied]
> Nobody tells the whole truth all the time, and I advise strongly
> not to try to claim otherwise.
> [end]
> Dutch Oct 23 2006 http://tinyurl.com/6psp6h7
>
> *Abortion:*
>
> "In fact I have been a pro-choice activist, my former
> wife was a nurse in an abortion clinic for a time with
> Henry Morgentaler prior to Roe v Wade. She faced
> charges for it. My current wife has had an abortion."
> Dutch 7 May 2006 http://tinyurl.com/28oxdg
>
> But
>
> [start - A.M. to Dutch]
> > Does your wife agree with your principles? What if
> > she didn't? Would you divorce her if she aborted your
> > child? If your wife mistakenly got pregnant and simply
> > did not want to committ to the full term and subsequent
> > child bearing, would you leave her?

> [Dutch]
> My wife would never kill a member of our family, not
> before birth, not after. The idea is unthinkable.
> [end]
> Dutch 4 Dec 2002 http://tinyurl.com/3dz22p
>
> As we can plainly see, Dutch lies about every issue that gets raised
> here and in other newsgroups, so don't fall for a single word he has
> to say on anything. He's a self-confessed liar.


*TOTALLY BUSTED* What's left here Derek? Dutch - a liar with no credibility, and Jonathan Ball -
another liar with no credibility who tells people he's got a Ph.D in economics, and a simple-minded
poor fool who tries to tries to justify cruelty by saying animals benefit from it. *LOL* There's not
a credible anti left to argue with.