On Mar 8, 8:58*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 3/8/2012 12:32 AM, Rupert, in his lazy passivity, wrote:
>
>
>
> > As I say I am always happy to listen to constructive suggestions for
> > how I could further reduce the harm caused by my diet,
>
> But you're not willing to spend one minute doing the research yourself.

Yes. I have spent more than one minute trying to do research on the
matter. The outcome of my search was the reliable information on the
amount of harm caused by different plant foods is hard to come by.

I have spent time doing research into how cost-effective the different
blindness-curing charities are, as well, on a volunteer basis for the
philanthropy organisation I am involved with called "Giving What We
Can". That was probably a wiser investment of time and energy from the
point of view of reducing suffering.

I put some time and effort into doing research into how I can reduce
suffering, because it's a topic that I'm interested in. Obviously
there is a limit to what I can do, because I have a job doing research
in pure maths. I also spend time doing other things that interest me.

I don't believe that anyone who knew the facts about what I do could
plausibly claim that I'm not interested in trying to find out how I
can reduce suffering. You may wish to make that claim. If you want to
make the claim it's no skin off my nose. The claim doesn't strike me
as especially plausible, and I don't think most people who knew the
facts about me would find it especially plausible, but more to the
point I don't think most people would care very much one way or the
another. That raises the question of why it is so important to you to
keep making this claim. Why is it so important to you to try to prove
that vegans "don't really care about suffering"? Is it perhaps because
you feel a little bit threatened by them in some way?

> * As with all "animal rights passivists", you expect someone else to try
> to salvage your bankrupt belief system for you.
>

I don't expect anyone else to do anything.

I'm happy with the amount of effort I'm putting in to trying to reduce
suffering. I'm not answerable to anyone else on how much effort I put
in, and I'm not interested in trying to compare myself with others.
There doesn't seem to be much point in trying to belittle the amount
of effort I put in unless you are actually able to offer constructive
suggestions for how I can improve. Of course, it may do something for
you to try to make yourself believe you've made a case that I don't
care about suffering, but maybe you should stop and think about that
for a while, ask yourself why you want to spend so much time trying to
make that case and whether it really is a worthwhile activity, and
what it says about you that you get something out of trying to do it.

> And:
>
>
>
> > I never made any claims similar to the ones Glen is making. I have
> > always taken the position that I am just trying to do the best I
> > reasonably can to reduce the amount of suffering and premature death
> > required to produce my diet.
>
> But you don't. *"Doing the best you can" implies *doing* something, but
> the only thing you have blabbered about is what you're *not* doing:
> putting animal bits in your mouth.
>

Reading information about how animals are treated on modern farms and
responding by making a change in your diet is doing something.

Donating 10% of your income towards charities that alleviate suffering
in the Third World is doing something.

Doing research on the internet about suffering reduction, and
discussing the matter with like-minded people on the internet, is
doing something.

You obviously don't have any way of knowing what I do, and in any case
I'm not answerable to you as to how much effort I'm putting into
trying to reduce suffering. I don't have any reason for trying to do
it other than that I want to. There is no rational reason why I would
care about your opinion about the efforts I make.

Which raises the question of why would *you* care? Why do you suppose
that it is of interest to make public comment about the matter?

> What you /could/ do is spend a little time trying to research the
> numbers of animals killed per unit of yield for various types of
> vegetable produce. *But you just throw up your hands and shriek,
> "There's no data", and that's the end of it.
>

Well, there *are* no data and that's a bit of a problem, isn't it? Are
you suggesting I should fund some kind of study?

I *do* spend time trying to get reliable information about this stuff,
and also discuss these matters with other like-minded people on the
Internet who are trying to figure out the best way of reducing
suffering. You don't have any way of knowing what I do. But as I say,
there is no good reason why I have to justify myself to you. I don't
think you have any reasonable way of evaluating how much effort I put
into suffering reduction and I don't see why I should find your
opinion about the matter of any interest.

> In science, those credited with spectacular breakthroughs often talk
> about standing on the shoulders of giants who did earlier, often unsung
> work. *If some "vegan" ever does come up with an extensive set of
> numbers, it will be no thanks to the efforts of any midgets like you.

You're saying I should do my own research project about the topic,
Ball? Is that it? Do a study on wildlife populations before and after
harvest?