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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
George Plimpton George Plimpton is offline
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Default vicarious moral responsibility

On 3/8/2012 10:45 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Mar 8, 6:59 pm, George > wrote:
>> On 3/8/2012 9:38 AM, Rupert wrote:
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>>> On Mar 8, 5:46 pm, George > wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2012 8:10 AM, Rupert wrote:

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>>>>> On Mar 8, 5:09 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2012 7:43 AM, Rupert wrote:

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>>>>>>> On Mar 8, 4:42 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/8/2012 12:05 AM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 7, 9:32 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "glen" or "mark" or "little cocksucker" - the friend of Lesley Simon,
>>>>>>>>>> the Whore of Ballaghaderreen, County Roscommon - has it. He shares
>>>>>>>>>> moral responsibility for the animal CDs caused in order to put food on
>>>>>>>>>> his plate. This cannot be rationally disputed.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> His relationship with the hands-on killers of animals has these elements:

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>>>>>>>>>> * the relationship is voluntary - no coercion applied to the principal

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>>>>>>>>>> * the principal is an active participant, i.e., actively engages in
>>>>>>>>>> the relationship such as, for example, going to the grocery

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>>>>>>>>>> * the principal is fully aware of the agent's actions

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>>>>>>>>>> * the relationship is not instrumentally necessary for the principal to
>>>>>>>>>> achieve a legitimate goal, e.g. the acquisition of food

>>
>>>>>>>>>> "mark" or "glen" or "little cocksucker" or whatever he is this week
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't need to hire an agent at all, and he doesn't need to hire one
>>>>>>>>>> who kills animals collaterally. That he does makes him share moral
>>>>>>>>>> responsibility for the deaths of animals. He cannot claim to be living
>>>>>>>>>> a "cruelty free 'lifestyle'", and he sure as hell isn't "minimizing" his
>>>>>>>>>> CD footprint because he has never measured.

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>>>>>>>>> Your injection of carbon emission's into our planet's atmosphere has
>>>>>>>>> these elements:

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>>>>>>>>> - It is voluntary; no-one is coercing you into doing it.

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>>>>>>>>> - You are an active participant

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>>>>>>>>> - You are fully aware of the likely consequences of continued
>>>>>>>>> injection of carbon emissions into our planet's atmosphere for other
>>>>>>>>> humans

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>>>>>>>>> - It is not instrumentally necessary for you to achieve any
>>>>>>>>> legitimate goal.

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>>>>>>>>> You therefore have vicarious moral responsibility for the future harms
>>>>>>>>> to humans that will take place that will have been contributed to by
>>>>>>>>> your activity.

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>>>>>>>> Yep - I never denied it, either.

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>>>>>>> Okay, good. Would you also agree that it is more than likely that some
>>>>>>> humans will very prematurely die in the future as a result of
>>>>>>> anthropogenic climate change to which your activity has contributed?

>>
>>>>>> Still trying to find some way to make the dispersed sand of that fake
>>>>>> pedestal come back together like a rock, are you, Woopert? It won't
>>>>>> work. Your belief about your moral pose is false.

>>
>>>>> I don't know what belief you are talking about,

>>
>>>> The belief that refraining from eating animal bits is ethically
>>>> required, and that therefore if one does it one is ethically superior to
>>>> one who doesn't. That belief, you ****ing liar.

>>
>>> I don't believe either of those things.

>>
>> You sure do believe the first, and logically therefore you must believe
>> the second. Both are false.

>
> What I believe is that it is morally required, for most people living
> in modern agriculturally bountiful societies, anyway, to make some
> effort to reduce the amount of suffering and premature death that
> needs to be caused in order to produce their food. In fact I've been
> known to say they should make "every reasonable effort" although I
> acknowledge I have not offered any useful definition of what counts as
> a "reasonable effort",


Of course you haven't, because you, yourself, do nothing, so blabbering
about "reasonable effort" would be rather leaden irony coming from you.