On 3/6/2012 11:16 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Mar 6, 4:54 pm, George > wrote:
>> On 3/6/2012 12:54 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
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>>> On Mar 5, 9:45 pm, George > wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/2012 11:16 AM, Glen wrote:
>>
>>>>> On 05/03/2012 17:49, George Plimpton wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/5/2012 9:36 AM, Glen wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/03/2012 15:42, George Plimpton wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2012 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>>>>>> snip
>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that I have any way of knowing how the number of
>>>>>>>>> premature deaths caused per calorically equivalent serving of tofu
>>>>>>>>> compares with that for grass-fed beef or wild-caught fish.
>>
>>>>>>>> You know, intuitively and based on plausibility, that raising the
>>>>>>>> vegetable crops you would have to substitute in order to get equivalent
>>>>>>>> nutrition causes multiple CDs,and that 100% grass-fed beef or
>>>>>>>> wild-caught fish causes none.
>>
>>>>>>> Eating meat causes the death of animals.
>>
>>>>>> Cultivating, harvesting and distributing vegetables and fruits causes
>>>>>> the deaths of animals, too.
>>
>>>>> That isn't true.
>>
>>>> It *is* true.
>>
>>>>> It /may/ cause some deaths
>>
>>>> It does.
>>
>>>>> but it isn't a fact that it *WILL* cause them.
>>
>>>> It is a fact. Of course, you have made *no* effort to verify.
>>
>>>>> Eating meat *WILL* cause them.
>>
>>>> As many? You haven't attempted to verify that, either.
>>
>>>>>>> There's no getting away
>>>>>>> from that fact until you stop eating meat and go vegan.
>>
>>>>>> "Going 'vegan'" doesn't mean causing no deaths of animals.
>>
>>>>> It will mean causing no deaths to farm animals. That's a fact.
>>
>>>> So, it's ethical for the food you eat to cause countless deaths of small
>>>> field animals, but not ethical to slaughter meat animals? How could
>>>> that be?
>>
>>>>>>> There's only a small chance that animals were killed to produce my food.
>>
>>>>>> There is a 100% certainty that animals were harmed, including being
>>>>>> killed, in order to produce your food.
>>
>>>>> No. I don't believe you.
>>
>>>> You just don't *want* to believe it. Pretty interesting - Woopert has
>>>> been arguing for years that "vegans" are fully aware that animals are
>>>> slaughtered in the course of producing vegetables, as a matter of
>>>> course, and here you are to prove him wrong.
>>
>>> I never made that claim about all vegans.
>>
>> You have said that "vegans" - always put that word in quotes - generally
>> are aware of and do not dispute the fact that farming causes collateral
>> animal deaths. "glen" is an example of a "vegan" in raging denial.
>> Correct him, please.
>>
>
> I did.

Barely.


>>>>> You're only saying that because you
>>>>> want me to feel as guilty as you obviously do about the cruelty
>>>>> and death on your plate.
>>
>>>> No, I don't want you to feel guilty about that at all. What I want is
>>>> for you to abandon the disgusting pretense that you pursue a "cruelty
>>>> free 'lifestyle'." "veganism is all about sanctimonious
>>>> self-congratulation, and that alone makes it loathsome and immoral.
>>
>>>>>>> You don't want to acknowledge the huge difference between fact
>>
>>>>>> You have presented no "fact" that warrants any examination.
>>
>>>>> It's a fact that eating meat causes the death of animals. It's not
>>>>> a fact that eating vegetables and fruit causes the death of animals.
>>
>>>> It *is* a fact that farming vegetables and fruit causes the death of
>>>> animals.
>>
>>>> By the way, "eating" meat doesn't cause any deaths of animals - the meat
>>>> is already dead.
>>
>>>>>>> and plausibility because you want to make vegans feel as guilty
>>>>>>> as you do for all the pain, misery and death on your plate.
>>
>>>>>> No
>>
>>>>> Yes. I've seen this argument before from corpse eaters trying to
>>>>> defend their cruelty by saying, "We're all killers, so leave me alone."
>>
>>>> I'm not trying to defend anything, although I can. What I'm doing is
>>>> showing that your position is repulsive because it is a lie.
>>
>>>>> The deaths you cause are a necessary fact and unavoidable. The
>>>>> deaths I /might/ cause are, by your own word, only "plausible" and
>>>>> not a fact at all.
>>
>>>> No, the deaths you cause are a fact. When I have written of
>>>> plausibility, I have meant that it is plausible that a carefully chosen
>>>> meat-including diet causes fewer deaths than the typical, and perhaps
>>>> even *every*, "vegan" diet.
>>
>>>>> If driving my car always caused misery and death I wouldn't
>>>>> drive.
>>
>>>> Driving your car *does* always cause misery and death, but you keep
>>>> right on driving. Or, does the carbon emitted from *your* car somehow
>>>> not contribute to global warming, which is killing polar bears this very
>>>> minute?
>>
>>> One of the interesting things about this is that if you accept driving
>>> a car as an example of causing harm to animals, then you must also
>>> acknowledge that carbon emissions will inevitably cause serious harm
>>> to humans in the future.
>>
>> More likely than not, yes.
>>
>>> It's pretty plausible that you drive a car,
>>> and if that's the case then you can't claim not to be engaging in
>>> activity that causes harm to humans, if you wanted to make that claim.
>>
>> I never made such a claim.
>>
>
> It seems to be implicit in your accusing vegans of hypocrisy while
> denying that you yourself are a hypocrite.

Nope. Not in the least. "vegans" claim to be causing no harm of a
particular kind, even though they are causing it. I never made any
claim not to be causing harm anywhere. I never claimed to be causing no
harm, and I never claimed to be minimizing. Recognizing that some harm
to someone's interests is inevitable, and that reducing it can be
desirable, I am always open to suggestions. I recycle as much waste as
I know how to do; when I was much younger, I recycled nothing. I always
turn out the light when I leave a room in the house. I set my
thermostat to a lower temperature in cool weather and a higher
temperature in warm weather than I did when I was younger. I suggest
these things to others, and I am receptive to their suggestions.

Above all else, I don't compare myself to others in trying to decide if
I'm doing what is right. That comparison, more than anything else, is
what completely queers "veganism" - it is entirely predicated on such an
invidious comparison, and that's immoral.