On Mar 6, 11:55*pm, dh@. wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 01:01:06 -0800 (PST), Rupert >
> wrote:
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> >On Mar 5, 8:22*pm, dh@. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:35:17 -0800 (PST), Rupert >
> >> wrote:
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> >> >On 2 Mrz., 16:43, Goo wrote:
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> >> >> Forget about ****wit's lack of hard evidence. *You have to make a wholly
> >> >> implausible case to try to suggest that calorically equivalent servings
> >> >> of beef and rice have a collateral death toll that favors the rice.
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> >> >I never said anything about rice.
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> >> * * We were discussing soy because I am overly generous, just as I also was with
> >> the estimate of 5 deaths related to a type of animal that is often likely to
> >> produce none.
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> >> >But I also don't have any idea about what could be said about
> >> >calorically equivalent servings of beef and rice, either.
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> >> * * Rice would necessarily involve even more than soy. If you figure up the
> >> difference between grass raised milk and rice milk the difference would be even
> >> more huge in favor of the cow milk. HUGE!!!
>
> >> >> *Now
> >> >> I get the pleasure once again of telling you what you do and don't
> >> >> believe, because I know: *you do not believe that the rice causes fewer
> >> >> CDs than the beef.
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> >> >No, I don't. I lack a belief one way or the other, because I have no
> >> >evidence one way or the other.
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> >> * * In some cases soy causes more and in some beef causes more. Can you get that
> >> far along with it, doctor?
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> >If that is the case, then it seems unlikely that, as you claimed, one
> >serving of soy product is likely to involve hundreds of times as many
> >death as a calorically equivalent serving of grass-fed beef. So you
> >should stop making that claim.
>
> * * You haven't thought this through enough to make such a claim, since you're
> only now--IF you finally are now--beginning to accept the fact that beef
> sometimes involves less.

I don't have any way of knowing, do I?

You refuse to give *any* estimate at all for the death rate associated
with one serving of tofu. If you do not have any idea of any range
into which the number falls, then you're not in a position to make any
comparisons.

> For you to finally confess that you're aware of that
> one fact would be a huge step for you but you still have not taken it, much less
> have you gotten to the position of being able to determine in which cases soy
> produces more and in which cases beef does. Notice that this is yet another
> distinction that you not only are unable to make, but you don't even want to
> accept that the situations which create the distinctions exist, even though it's
> obvious that they do.
>
> * * When you go look into grass raised dairy while at the same time getting to
> see some first hand examples of dairy cows on a farm, while you think about the
> value of life to them also think about the fact that they contribute to less
> deaths than soy, and WAY fewer deaths than rice. That *could* be a big learning
> day for you, and it could lead to many many more if you find a place where you
> can regularly get some grass raised dairy, and enjoy seeing cows enjoying lives
> of positive value (most days, hopefully :-), and maybe you could finally learn
> what that means too.
> . . .
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> >> * * Go inquire from some cattle farmers in the area. If they don't have any to
> >> sell you, or know anyone who does, they could still help you move in the
> >> direction of finding someone who does know. While you're around the cattle see
> >> if the farmer will let you observe them a little bit, and if so see if you can
> >> appreciate that some or all of them appear to have lives of positive value, or
> >> if you see some you feel do and some you feel don't maybe then you could learn
> >> to appreciate the distinction. That is if you want to see it first hand as you
> >> SHOULD! If there are any grass raised dairys in the area you would almost
> >> certainly do better to begin with that, and it's better than beef anyway
> >> ethically. So a great opportunity for you is to drop by a dairy farm probably in
> >> the evening around 4 or 5 or in the morning when there are people around
> >> milking, and ask them if any dairies in the area are grass raised. Also if there
> >> is some sort of agricultural department in your area or someplace not too far
> >> away you should call them and they might be able to tell you where to get grass
> >> raised animal products and free range eggs too. If you could go to a battery
> >> farm and ask them where to get cage free eggs, and see if they would let you
> >> look at the birds to see what you think, then go to the cage free place or a
> >> place where they raise the parents of either broilers or layers (because the
> >> parents are kept cage free for better breeding) and see what you think.. If you
> >> do that successfully even you might learn to appreciate a distinction you as yet
> >> claim to be unable to.