On 3/6/2012 4:47 AM, Glen wrote:
> On 06/03/2012 04:01, George Plimpton wrote:
>> On 3/5/2012 4:20 PM, Glen wrote:
>>> On 05/03/2012 20:18, Dutch wrote:
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> On 05/03/2012 17:49, George Plimpton wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/5/2012 9:36 AM, Glen wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/03/2012 15:42, George Plimpton wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/4/2012 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>>>>>> snip
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that I have any way of knowing how the number of
>>>>>>>>> premature deaths caused per calorically equivalent serving of tofu
>>>>>>>>> compares with that for grass-fed beef or wild-caught fish.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You know, intuitively and based on plausibility, that raising the
>>>>>>>> vegetable crops you would have to substitute in order to get
>>>>>>>> equivalent
>>>>>>>> nutrition causes multiple CDs,and that 100% grass-fed beef or
>>>>>>>> wild-caught fish causes none.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eating meat causes the death of animals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cultivating, harvesting and distributing vegetables and fruits causes
>>>>>> the deaths of animals, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> That isn't true. It /may/ cause some deaths but it isn't a fact that
>>>>> it *WILL* cause them. Eating meat *WILL* cause them.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no getting away
>>>>>>> from that fact until you stop eating meat and go vegan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Going 'vegan'" doesn't mean causing no deaths of animals.
>>>>>
>>>>> It will mean causing no deaths to farm animals. That's a fact.
>>>>
>>>> So what?
>>>
>>> So that means a lot to me. I don't want to kill farm animals. The
>>> surest way to stop killing them is to stop eating them.
>>
>> So, if you kill animals and leave the corpses in the field to rot,
>
> I don't kill them.

You share moral responsibility for the deaths. You are complicit. You
are guilty - not in rational dispute.


>>>> Does the life of a cow have more value than the life of a mouse?
>>>
>>> No.
>>
>> So, why do you keep killing mice?
>
> I don't.

You do, "glen" my boy. See above.


>
>>>>>>> There's only a small chance that animals were killed to produce my
>>>>>>> food.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a 100% certainty that animals were harmed, including being
>>>>>> killed, in order to produce your food.
>>>>>
>>>>> No. I don't believe you. You're only saying that because you
>>>>> want me to feel as guilty as you obviously do about the cruelty
>>>>> and death on your plate.
>>>>
>>>> That's false, he feels no guilt about the deaths caused to bring him
>>>> his
>>>> food.
>>>
>>> Yes he does but he won't admit it.
>>
>> I do admit it.
>
> No you don't.

I do.


> You said that meat eating doesn't cause them
> because they're dead already - killed by someone else.

I was ****ing with your tiny brain, "glen" my boy. I was engaging, for
rhetorical effect, in the same bullshit sophistry you do.

The reality, "glen" my boy, is that *everyone* causes harm to animals -
and humans - merely by existing and consuming.


>>
>>> He even refuses to admit the deaths of the animals he eats.
>>
>> Bullshit. Of course I admit them. What about it?
>
> They're dead before you eat them and you believe that
> takes away your guilt. You won't admit that you killed
> them and that you're to blame.

I do admit it, of course. I was using your own illogic on you to
illustrate a point. The animals killed in the course of producing your
vegetables are just as dead as the animals I eat. The only difference
is in the disposition of the corpses.


>
>>> "By the way, "eating" meat doesn't cause any deaths of
>>> animals - the meat is already dead." - George
>>
>> That's correct: the *eating* doesn't cause the deaths. The meat is
>> already dead long before I buy it.
>
> Then the eating of vegetables doesn't cause any deaths. The
> animals are already dead long before I buy my food. You said
> it.

It was a rhetorical stunt, "glen" my boy, employed to illustrate the
absurdity of your claim.

It is a *fact*, "glen" my boy: we both cause the deaths of animals by
our consumption choices, you every bit as much as I.


>>>> The truth is that vegans, you, derive a perverse kick from trying to
>>>> make non-vegans feel guilty.
>>>
>>> But you *ARE* guilty.
>>
>> So are you.
>
> No. You are.

So are you, "glen" my boy.


>>> You can't escape that guilt.
>>
>> Neither can you.
>
> I don't have any guilt to escape from.

Of course you have, "glen" my boy.


>> The difference is, omnivores admit theirs.
>
> No they/you say that the animals are dead already before they eat
> them.

See above, "glen" my boy.


>> "vegans" fatuously try to deny theirs, so they can continue to propagate the
>> fiction that they lead "cruelty-free" lives.
>
> There's nothing to deny. Vegans don't kill them.

You share in the moral responsibility for their deaths, "glen" my boy.


>>>>>>> You don't want to acknowledge the huge difference between fact
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You have presented no "fact" that warrants any examination.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a fact that eating meat causes the death of animals. It's not
>>>>> a fact that eating vegetables and fruit causes the death of animals.
>>>>
>>>> It is a fact.
>>>
>>> No it isn't.
>>
>> It is. Animals die in vegetable production.
>>
>> http://www.tndeer.com/tndeertalk/ubb...156&page=32 0
>>
>
> Yes they do occasionally die but not in the numbers I've seen
> reported here.

Oooooohhhhhhh! So, animals *do* die in the course of producing the
foods you eat! What took you so long, "glen" my boy?


>>>> Fruit orchards are heavily sprayed with pesticides. Crop
>>>> fields are sprayed with herbicides. Those are deadly chemicals.
>>>> Machines
>>>> used to till, spray and harvest also kill small animals, there have
>>>> been
>>>> studies done on that.
>>>
>>> There's a plausible chance that some animals die in crop fields.
>>
>> It is a certainty.
>
> No that's not true.

It is true, "glen" my boy.


>>> It's not a fact that all vegetable production kills animals.
>>
>> It is a fact that vegetable production kills animals,
>
> I've never denied that they occasionally die.

Yes, you did, "glen" my boy. It was a lie.

You're done, and you know it. You know that your moral pose is
destroyed. You can't maintain it. You know it's bullshit, "glen" my boy.