On 3/5/2012 3:47 PM, Glen wrote:
> On 05/03/2012 20:45, George Plimpton wrote:
>> On 3/5/2012 11:16 AM, Glen wrote:
>>> On 05/03/2012 17:49, George Plimpton wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/2012 9:36 AM, Glen wrote:
>>>>> On 05/03/2012 15:42, George Plimpton wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/4/2012 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>>>> snip
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't believe that I have any way of knowing how the number of
>>>>>>> premature deaths caused per calorically equivalent serving of tofu
>>>>>>> compares with that for grass-fed beef or wild-caught fish.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know, intuitively and based on plausibility, that raising the
>>>>>> vegetable crops you would have to substitute in order to get
>>>>>> equivalent
>>>>>> nutrition causes multiple CDs,and that 100% grass-fed beef or
>>>>>> wild-caught fish causes none.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eating meat causes the death of animals.
>>>>
>>>> Cultivating, harvesting and distributing vegetables and fruits causes
>>>> the deaths of animals, too.
>>>
>>> That isn't true.
>>
>> It *is* true.
>
> No it isn't.

It is.


> Not in every case. It's a plausible effect but it isn't a
> certain fact that vegetarian food causes animal deaths. You want
> to make it a fact to make your guilt go away.

No, that's not the reason. I've told you the reason: to get you off
your phony moral pedestal.


>>> It /may/ cause some deaths
>>
>> It does.
>
> No it doesn't.

It does.


>>> but it isn't a fact that it *WILL* cause them.
>>
>> It is a fact.
>
> It's *your* fact.

It's a fact. It's a fact that is conceded by any "vegan" who has
seriously looked at it.


>> Of course, you have made *no* effort to verify.
>
> It's your claim and you haven't supported it with evidence.

You have made no serious effort to verify that the foods you eat cause
no death. You go to absurd, obscene lengths to ensure there isn't one
molecule of animal bits in your food - why won't you do *ANYTHING* to
ensure that your vegetables don't cause any death? You've done
*nothing* to ensure that.


>>> Eating meat *WILL* cause them.
>>
>> As many?
>
> Numbers are irrelevant.

They are? So, if you admit that *some* of your vegetables cause animal
death - and they do - then you're a murderer, right?

You didn't even read the article I linked to start the thread, did you?
You should read it:
http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/11419...-fails-and-one



>> You haven't attempted to verify that, either.
>
> I have no need to verify your irrelevancies.

You absolutely have a requirement to verify your claims. You claim your
diet doesn't cause any animal death. Prove it.


>>>>> There's no getting away
>>>>> from that fact until you stop eating meat and go vegan.
>>>>
>>>> "Going 'vegan'" doesn't mean causing no deaths of animals.
>>>
>>> It will mean causing no deaths to farm animals. That's a fact.
>>
>> So, it's ethical for the food you eat to cause countless deaths of small
>> field animals, but not ethical to slaughter meat animals? How could
>> that be?
>
> Intent.

Even involuntary manslaughter is a crime. Injuring or killing people
due to reckless endangerment and willful disregard for safety is a
crime. That's exactly what happens when farmers slaughter animals of
the field in the course of vegetable farming.

"vegans" claim they cause no harm to animals through their diets.
That's false.


>>>>> There's only a small chance that animals were killed to produce my
>>>>> food.
>>>>
>>>> There is a 100% certainty that animals were harmed, including being
>>>> killed, in order to produce your food.
>>>
>>> No. I don't believe you.
>>
>> You just don't *want* to believe it.
>
> I know as a fact that no animals were killed or harmed in
> order to produce the vegetarian meal I ate this evening.

You do *not* know that. Saying that you do is a lie.


>> Pretty interesting - Woopert has
>> been arguing for years that "vegans" are fully aware that animals are
>> slaughtered in the course of producing vegetables, as a matter of
>> course, and here you are to prove him wrong.
>>
> I don't deny that some animals are occasionally killed to produce
> vegetables and fruit. What I reject is your claim that all vegetable
> production causes it.

*Some* animals are killed by all vegetable production, including the
vegetables you eat. You don't even have any idea within the broad
category of vegetables which ones cause a lot of death and which ones
cause not so much. You can't be bothered. It isn't about the animals
at all - it's about you and your convenience and your casual,
unwarranted assumption of ethical superiority. In fact, your ethics is
shit.


>>> You're only saying that because you
>>> want me to feel as guilty as you obviously do about the cruelty
>>> and death on your plate.
>>
>> No, I don't want you to feel guilty about that at all. What I want is
>> for you to abandon the disgusting pretense that you pursue a "cruelty
>> free 'lifestyle'."
>
> But it *IS* cruelty free on my part.

No, it isn't. The fact you don't personally kill any animals is
irrelevant. Animals die to put food on your plate. *I* don't kill the
animals I eat, either, so I'm no more "cruel" than you are.


> If any animals are killed they
> aren't killed because of my cruelty. You can't say the same.

Of course I can. I don't kill any animals.

The simple fact is, you commission the deaths of animals. You willingly
and cheerfully buy food from farmers who kill animals with no concern at
all.


>
>
>> "veganism is all about sanctimonious
>> self-congratulation, and that alone makes it loathsome and immoral.
>
> I do congratulate myself for having the strength to stand by my
> convictions

You don't have any convictions. You are congratulating yourself for
following a morally empty rule. It's as morally empty as "chew 12 times
before swallowing." It's just a rule - no ethics behind it.


>>>>> You don't want to acknowledge the huge difference between fact
>>>>
>>>> You have presented no "fact" that warrants any examination.
>>>
>>> It's a fact that eating meat causes the death of animals. It's not
>>> a fact that eating vegetables and fruit causes the death of animals.
>>
>> It *is* a fact that farming vegetables and fruit causes the death of
>> animals.
>
> Then it should be easy for you to present your evidence to support
> this /fact/ shouldn't it.

http://web.archive.org/web/200411070...ood/vegan.html

From a former rice farmer:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....o/GOmWEfsbmhAJ


>> By the way, "eating" meat doesn't cause any deaths of animals - the meat
>> is already dead.
>
> You killed it.

I didn't. Someone in a slaughterhouse did it.


> You want to pretend you didn't because your guilt
> would suffocating you if you admitted it.

Nope, no guilt. I've told you several times: I'm not trying to make
you feel guilty for the animal deaths you cause, and I'm not trying to
expiate any guilt of my own. I'm showing you that your absurd and
sanctimonious self-exaltation isn't warranted.


>
>>>>> and plausibility because you want to make vegans feel as guilty
>>>>> as you do for all the pain, misery and death on your plate.
>>>>
>>>> No, I want "vegans" to acknowledge that their belief system is flawed
>>>> beyond salvage. "veganism" is predicated on illogical nonsense.
>>>
>>> Yes. I've seen this argument before from corpse eaters trying to
>>> defend their cruelty by saying, "We're all killers, so leave me alone."
>>
>> I'm not trying to defend anything, although I can. What I'm doing is
>> showing that your position is repulsive because it is a lie.
>
> No but yours is.

It isn't. I don't lie about or try to conceal the deaths my diet
causes, but you do.


> You don't believe you're responsible for the deaths
> you cause

False. I cheerfully acknowledge them (can you guess why?)


> and yet you want vegans to believe they're responsible
> for the deaths they don't cause.

You *do* cause animal deaths. This is not in rational dispute.


>>> The deaths you cause are a necessary fact and unavoidable. The
>>> deaths I /might/ cause are, by your own word, only "plausible" and
>>> not a fact at all.
>>
>> No, the deaths you cause are a fact.
>
> Evidence.

http://www.tndeer.com/tndeertalk/ubb...156&page=32 0

See earlier citations. Steven Davis, the professor at Oregon State,
gave reliable estimates for field animal deaths.


>> When I have written of
>> plausibility, I have meant that it is plausible that a carefully chosen
>> meat-including diet causes fewer deaths than the typical, and perhaps
>> even *every*, "vegan" diet.
>
> I know what you wrote, and that wasn't it.

It was.


>>> If driving my car always caused misery and death I wouldn't
>>> drive.
>>
>> Driving your car *does* always cause misery and death, but you keep
>> right on driving. Or, does the carbon emitted from *your* car somehow
>> not contribute to global warming, which is killing polar bears this very
>> minute?
>
> I don't believe that.

What don't you believe - that driving your car contributes to global
warming? Don't be an idiot - of course it does!


>>
>>> If driving my car held only the plausible chance of misery
>>> and death, like it does, I would still drive.
>>
>> Driving your car causes misery and death. You simply close your eyes to
>> it. You're a filthy hypocrite.
>
> You're a murderer.

No, I'm a killer. So are you. But I admit it, while you frantically
and shrilly deny it.