The 'vegan' shuffle
On 3/5/2012 11:16 AM, Glen wrote:
> On 05/03/2012 17:49, George Plimpton wrote:
>> On 3/5/2012 9:36 AM, Glen wrote:
>>> On 05/03/2012 15:42, George Plimpton wrote:
>>>> On 3/4/2012 9:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't believe that I have any way of knowing how the number of
>>>>> premature deaths caused per calorically equivalent serving of tofu
>>>>> compares with that for grass-fed beef or wild-caught fish.
>>>>
>>>> You know, intuitively and based on plausibility, that raising the
>>>> vegetable crops you would have to substitute in order to get equivalent
>>>> nutrition causes multiple CDs,and that 100% grass-fed beef or
>>>> wild-caught fish causes none.
>>>
>>> Eating meat causes the death of animals.
>>
>> Cultivating, harvesting and distributing vegetables and fruits causes
>> the deaths of animals, too.
>
> That isn't true.
It *is* true.
> It /may/ cause some deaths
It does.
> but it isn't a fact that it *WILL* cause them.
It is a fact. Of course, you have made *no* effort to verify.
> Eating meat *WILL* cause them.
As many? You haven't attempted to verify that, either.
>>> There's no getting away
>>> from that fact until you stop eating meat and go vegan.
>>
>> "Going 'vegan'" doesn't mean causing no deaths of animals.
>
> It will mean causing no deaths to farm animals. That's a fact.
So, it's ethical for the food you eat to cause countless deaths of small
field animals, but not ethical to slaughter meat animals? How could
that be?
>>> There's only a small chance that animals were killed to produce my food.
>>
>> There is a 100% certainty that animals were harmed, including being
>> killed, in order to produce your food.
>
> No. I don't believe you.
You just don't *want* to believe it. Pretty interesting - Woopert has
been arguing for years that "vegans" are fully aware that animals are
slaughtered in the course of producing vegetables, as a matter of
course, and here you are to prove him wrong.
> You're only saying that because you
> want me to feel as guilty as you obviously do about the cruelty
> and death on your plate.
No, I don't want you to feel guilty about that at all. What I want is
for you to abandon the disgusting pretense that you pursue a "cruelty
free 'lifestyle'." "veganism is all about sanctimonious
self-congratulation, and that alone makes it loathsome and immoral.
>>> You don't want to acknowledge the huge difference between fact
>>
>> You have presented no "fact" that warrants any examination.
>
> It's a fact that eating meat causes the death of animals. It's not
> a fact that eating vegetables and fruit causes the death of animals.
It *is* a fact that farming vegetables and fruit causes the death of
animals.
By the way, "eating" meat doesn't cause any deaths of animals - the meat
is already dead.
>
>>> and plausibility because you want to make vegans feel as guilty
>>> as you do for all the pain, misery and death on your plate.
>>
>> No
>
> Yes. I've seen this argument before from corpse eaters trying to
> defend their cruelty by saying, "We're all killers, so leave me alone."
I'm not trying to defend anything, although I can. What I'm doing is
showing that your position is repulsive because it is a lie.
> The deaths you cause are a necessary fact and unavoidable. The
> deaths I /might/ cause are, by your own word, only "plausible" and
> not a fact at all.
No, the deaths you cause are a fact. When I have written of
plausibility, I have meant that it is plausible that a carefully chosen
meat-including diet causes fewer deaths than the typical, and perhaps
even *every*, "vegan" diet.
>
> If driving my car always caused misery and death I wouldn't
> drive.
Driving your car *does* always cause misery and death, but you keep
right on driving. Or, does the carbon emitted from *your* car somehow
not contribute to global warming, which is killing polar bears this very
minute?
> If driving my car held only the plausible chance of misery
> and death, like it does, I would still drive.
Driving your car causes misery and death. You simply close your eyes to
it. You're a filthy hypocrite.
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