The 'vegan' shuffle
On Mar 4, 10:21*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 3/4/2012 9:10 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> > On Mar 5, 6:08 am, George > *wrote:
> >> On 3/4/2012 8:55 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>> On Mar 5, 5:48 am, George > * *wrote:
> >>>> On 3/4/2012 8:27 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>> On Mar 5, 4:40 am, George > * * *wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/4/2012 12:10 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>> On 4 Mrz., 18:05, George > * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 3/4/2012 4:29 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>> On 3 Mrz., 19:18, George > * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/3/2012 4:00 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 3, 6:37 am, George > * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 8:25 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 2, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 10:38 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2 Mrz., 19:33, George > * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 9:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2 Mrz., 16:43, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 3:43 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Mrz., 23:46, dh@. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:36:50 -0800, Goo wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "veganism" is not a reliable means
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in order to be successful:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gelatin capsules, *adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * * The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being vegan.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * * From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> derived from grass raised animals.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You keep on making this claim over and over again, just as you have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for at least six years, but when challenged to provide actual evidence
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it you are unable to provide any.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ****wit doesn't have any evidence, of course, but for certain there is a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strong logical case to be made. *What do you think the number of deaths
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caused raising one grass-fed steer might be? *How many deaths can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plausibly be attributed to the farming of one hectare of rice in a wet
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paddy?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have any idea about the answers to either of those questions,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I was talking about soya-based products, not rice.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But you certainly ought to be able to think in terms of what's plausible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and seems to make sense, can't you? *Oh, wait - maybe not.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really have any feel for what's "plausible" or "seems to make
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense" in this area.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's obviously a lie, but even telling it shows that you don't care to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would be interested in knowing if I thought that it was feasible to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> find out.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You don't care about the feasibility of finding out. *You don't care
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about knowing the answer, period.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> False.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Nope - true.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> * * * *You don't care to know *which*
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "vegan" diet is the least-harm diet, so that you might really validly
> >>>>>>>>>>>> claim to be "minimizing". *You don't care about any of it. *You just
> >>>>>>>>>>>> want to pat yourself on the back and act superior.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You're a fool.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Concession noted and accepted.
>
> >>>>>>>>> You appear to have lost touch with reality.
>
> >>>>>>>> Not in the least, and you don't believe that anyway. *It's just the
> >>>>>>>> sort of childish whining to which you've been reduced.
>
> >>>>>>> I see.
>
> >>>>>> We all see it.
>
> >>>>> You have all sorts of very interesting insights
>
> >>>> These aren't exceptionally interesting, but they're still accurate.
>
> >>> So when I say "You're a fool" and you say "Concession noted and
> >>> accepted", I don't really believe that you appear to have lost touch
> >>> with reality?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have some idea, then why don't you tell me how you arrived at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this idea.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have done. *I have elaborated that the production of any vegetable
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> crop plausibly causes many animal CDs, and the production of one 100%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> grass-fed steer plausibly causes no CDs.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So how does that help me to arrive at a conclusion about the matter?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Easily: *if you want to follow a positively lower CD diet than
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "veganism", eat grass fed beef plus some fruits and vegetables you pick
> >>>>>>>>>>>> from wild plants or cultivate yourself in your home garden.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It does not follow from what you said above that this diet would
> >>>>>>>>>>> involve less suffering and premature death.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> It does.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * *Now I get the pleasure once again of telling you what you do and don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe, because I know: *you do not believe that the rice causes fewer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CDs than the beef.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I don't. I lack a belief one way or the other, because I have no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence one way or the other.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, that's false. *You do not lack any belief one way or another. *We
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know this because you have already said you know that vegetable
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture kills animals. *You have *some* sense as to what might be a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plausible number of animals killed for different types of agriculture.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough to know how to compare calorically equivalent servings of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rice and grass-fed beef.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. *As previously established, a 100 gram serving of rice - or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> soybeans or whatever - carries the weight of many animal CDs,
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> How many? Give me a range.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> According to diderot, many thousands.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So many tens of CDs per gram of rice?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> versus
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *no* CDs for a 100 gram serving of 100% grass-fed beef. *You can do the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No I can't, I have no ranges of numbers on the basis of which to make
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the comparison.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You *know* that plausibly, the steer causes no CDs, and the vegetable
> >>>>>>>>>>>> products cause many.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> "Many" doesn't mean anything. Specify a number range.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> All you need to know is that it exceeds the expected value of CDs for a
> >>>>>>>>>> nutritionally equivalent amount of grass-fed beef or wild-caught fish.
>
> >>>>>>>>> And how exactly do I know that?
>
> >>>>>>>> Cut it out, woopee. *Just cut the shit, now.
>
> >>>>>>> It would appear that you do not wish to answer my question.
>
> >>>>>> It's an insincere and time-wasting question.
>
> >>>>> So you appear to believe.
>
> >>>> Because it is.
>
> >>> You reckon?
>
> >> Guaranteed.
>
> > How do you know?
>
> I have lots of experience with your insincerity and time-wasting efforts.
Tell him what hogs eat, Goober.
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