On Mar 5, 5:48*am, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 3/4/2012 8:27 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> > On Mar 5, 4:40 am, George > *wrote:
> >> On 3/4/2012 12:10 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>> On 4 Mrz., 18:05, George > * *wrote:
> >>>> On 3/4/2012 4:29 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>> On 3 Mrz., 19:18, George > * * *wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/3/2012 4:00 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>> On Mar 3, 6:37 am, George > * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 8:25 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 2, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 10:38 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2 Mrz., 19:33, George > * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 9:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2 Mrz., 16:43, George > * * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 3:43 AM, Rupert wrote:
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Mrz., 23:46, dh@. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:36:50 -0800, Goo wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "veganism" is not a reliable means
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in order to be successful:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gelatin capsules, *adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being vegan.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> derived from grass raised animals.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You keep on making this claim over and over again, just as you have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for at least six years, but when challenged to provide actual evidence
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it you are unable to provide any.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ****wit doesn't have any evidence, of course, but for certain there is a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> strong logical case to be made. *What do you think the number of deaths
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> caused raising one grass-fed steer might be? *How many deaths can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> plausibly be attributed to the farming of one hectare of rice in a wet
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> paddy?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have any idea about the answers to either of those questions,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and I was talking about soya-based products, not rice.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But you certainly ought to be able to think in terms of what's plausible
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and seems to make sense, can't you? *Oh, wait - maybe not.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't really have any feel for what's "plausible" or "seems to make
> >>>>>>>>>>> sense" in this area.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> That's obviously a lie, but even telling it shows that you don't care to
> >>>>>>>>>> know.
>
> >>>>>>>>> I would be interested in knowing if I thought that it was feasible to
> >>>>>>>>> find out.
>
> >>>>>>>> You don't care about the feasibility of finding out. *You don't care
> >>>>>>>> about knowing the answer, period.
>
> >>>>>>> False.
>
> >>>>>> Nope - true.
>
> >>>>>>>> * * *You don't care to know *which*
> >>>>>>>> "vegan" diet is the least-harm diet, so that you might really validly
> >>>>>>>> claim to be "minimizing". *You don't care about any of it. *You just
> >>>>>>>> want to pat yourself on the back and act superior.
>
> >>>>>>> You're a fool.
>
> >>>>>> Concession noted and accepted.
>
> >>>>> You appear to have lost touch with reality.
>
> >>>> Not in the least, and you don't believe that anyway. *It's just the
> >>>> sort of childish whining to which you've been reduced.
>
> >>> I see.
>
> >> We all see it.
>
> > You have all sorts of very interesting insights
>
> These aren't exceptionally interesting, but they're still accurate.
>

So when I say "You're a fool" and you say "Concession noted and
accepted", I don't really believe that you appear to have lost touch
with reality?

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> >>>>>>>>>>> If you have some idea, then why don't you tell me how you arrived at
> >>>>>>>>>>> this idea.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> I have done. *I have elaborated that the production of any vegetable
> >>>>>>>>>> crop plausibly causes many animal CDs, and the production of one 100%
> >>>>>>>>>> grass-fed steer plausibly causes no CDs.
>
> >>>>>>>>> So how does that help me to arrive at a conclusion about the matter?
>
> >>>>>>>> Easily: *if you want to follow a positively lower CD diet than
> >>>>>>>> "veganism", eat grass fed beef plus some fruits and vegetables you pick
> >>>>>>>> from wild plants or cultivate yourself in your home garden.
>
> >>>>>>> It does not follow from what you said above that this diet would
> >>>>>>> involve less suffering and premature death.
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> >>>>>> It does.
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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * *Now I get the pleasure once again of telling you what you do and don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe, because I know: *you do not believe that the rice causes fewer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CDs than the beef.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I don't. I lack a belief one way or the other, because I have no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence one way or the other.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> No, that's false. *You do not lack any belief one way or another. *We
> >>>>>>>>>>>> know this because you have already said you know that vegetable
> >>>>>>>>>>>> agriculture kills animals. *You have *some* sense as to what might be a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> plausible number of animals killed for different types of agriculture.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Not enough to know how to compare calorically equivalent servings of
> >>>>>>>>>>> rice and grass-fed beef.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. *As previously established, a 100 gram serving of rice - or
> >>>>>>>>>> soybeans or whatever - carries the weight of many animal CDs,
>
> >>>>>>>>> How many? Give me a range.
>
> >>>>>>>> According to diderot, many thousands.
>
> >>>>>>> So many tens of CDs per gram of rice?
>
> >>>>>>>>>> versus
> >>>>>>>>>> *no* CDs for a 100 gram serving of 100% grass-fed beef. *You can do the
> >>>>>>>>>> comparison.
>
> >>>>>>>>> No I can't, I have no ranges of numbers on the basis of which to make
> >>>>>>>>> the comparison.
>
> >>>>>>>> You *know* that plausibly, the steer causes no CDs, and the vegetable
> >>>>>>>> products cause many.
>
> >>>>>>> "Many" doesn't mean anything. Specify a number range.
>
> >>>>>> All you need to know is that it exceeds the expected value of CDs for a
> >>>>>> nutritionally equivalent amount of grass-fed beef or wild-caught fish.
>
> >>>>> And how exactly do I know that?
>
> >>>> Cut it out, woopee. *Just cut the shit, now.
>
> >>> It would appear that you do not wish to answer my question.
>
> >> It's an insincere and time-wasting question.
>
> > So you appear to believe.
>
> Because it is.

You reckon?