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Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
Rupert Rupert is offline
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Default The 'vegan' shuffle

On Mar 5, 4:40*am, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 3/4/2012 12:10 PM, Rupert wrote:
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> > On 4 Mrz., 18:05, George > *wrote:
> >> On 3/4/2012 4:29 AM, Rupert wrote:

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> >>> On 3 Mrz., 19:18, George > * *wrote:
> >>>> On 3/3/2012 4:00 AM, Rupert wrote:

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> >>>>> On Mar 3, 6:37 am, George > * * *wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/2/2012 8:25 PM, Rupert wrote:

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> >>>>>>> On Mar 2, 8:06 pm, George > * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 10:38 AM, Rupert wrote:

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> >>>>>>>>> On 2 Mrz., 19:33, George > * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 9:35 AM, Rupert wrote:

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> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2 Mrz., 16:43, George > * * * * * *wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2012 3:43 AM, Rupert wrote:

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> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Mrz., 23:46, dh@. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:36:50 -0800, Goo wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "veganism" is not a reliable means

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * *· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in order to be successful:

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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tires, paper, upholstery, floor waxes, glass, water
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filters, rubber, fertilizer, antifreeze, ceramics, insecticides,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> insulation, linoleum, plastic, textiles, blood factors, collagen,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> heparin, insulin, solvents, biodegradable detergents, herbicides,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gelatin capsules, *adhesive tape, laminated wood products,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> plywood, paneling, wallpaper and wallpaper paste, cellophane
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrap and tape, abrasives, steel ball bearings

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> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * *The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being vegan.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * *From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> derived from grass raised animals.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You keep on making this claim over and over again, just as you have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for at least six years, but when challenged to provide actual evidence
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for it you are unable to provide any.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ****wit doesn't have any evidence, of course, but for certain there is a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> strong logical case to be made. *What do you think the number of deaths
> >>>>>>>>>>>> caused raising one grass-fed steer might be? *How many deaths can
> >>>>>>>>>>>> plausibly be attributed to the farming of one hectare of rice in a wet
> >>>>>>>>>>>> paddy?

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> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't have any idea about the answers to either of those questions,
> >>>>>>>>>>> and I was talking about soya-based products, not rice.

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> >>>>>>>>>> But you certainly ought to be able to think in terms of what's plausible
> >>>>>>>>>> and seems to make sense, can't you? *Oh, wait - maybe not.

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> >>>>>>>>> I don't really have any feel for what's "plausible" or "seems to make
> >>>>>>>>> sense" in this area.

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> >>>>>>>> That's obviously a lie, but even telling it shows that you don't care to
> >>>>>>>> know.

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> >>>>>>> I would be interested in knowing if I thought that it was feasible to
> >>>>>>> find out.

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> >>>>>> You don't care about the feasibility of finding out. *You don't care
> >>>>>> about knowing the answer, period.

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> >>>>> False.

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> >>>> Nope - true.

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> >>>>>> * * You don't care to know *which*
> >>>>>> "vegan" diet is the least-harm diet, so that you might really validly
> >>>>>> claim to be "minimizing". *You don't care about any of it. *You just
> >>>>>> want to pat yourself on the back and act superior.

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> >>>>> You're a fool.

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> >>>> Concession noted and accepted.

>
> >>> You appear to have lost touch with reality.

>
> >> Not in the least, and you don't believe that anyway. *It's just the
> >> sort of childish whining to which you've been reduced.

>
> > I see.

>
> We all see it.
>


You have all sorts of very interesting insights, Ball.

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> >>>>>>>>> If you have some idea, then why don't you tell me how you arrived at
> >>>>>>>>> this idea.

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> >>>>>>>> I have done. *I have elaborated that the production of any vegetable
> >>>>>>>> crop plausibly causes many animal CDs, and the production of one 100%
> >>>>>>>> grass-fed steer plausibly causes no CDs.

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> >>>>>>> So how does that help me to arrive at a conclusion about the matter?

>
> >>>>>> Easily: *if you want to follow a positively lower CD diet than
> >>>>>> "veganism", eat grass fed beef plus some fruits and vegetables you pick
> >>>>>> from wild plants or cultivate yourself in your home garden.

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> >>>>> It does not follow from what you said above that this diet would
> >>>>> involve less suffering and premature death.

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> >>>> It does.

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> >>>>>>>>>>>> * * * Now I get the pleasure once again of telling you what you do and don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> believe, because I know: *you do not believe that the rice causes fewer
> >>>>>>>>>>>> CDs than the beef.

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> >>>>>>>>>>> No, I don't. I lack a belief one way or the other, because I have no
> >>>>>>>>>>> evidence one way or the other.

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> >>>>>>>>>> No, that's false. *You do not lack any belief one way or another. *We
> >>>>>>>>>> know this because you have already said you know that vegetable
> >>>>>>>>>> agriculture kills animals. *You have *some* sense as to what might be a
> >>>>>>>>>> plausible number of animals killed for different types of agriculture.

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> >>>>>>>>> Not enough to know how to compare calorically equivalent servings of
> >>>>>>>>> rice and grass-fed beef.

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> >>>>>>>> Bullshit. *As previously established, a 100 gram serving of rice - or
> >>>>>>>> soybeans or whatever - carries the weight of many animal CDs,

>
> >>>>>>> How many? Give me a range.

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> >>>>>> According to diderot, many thousands.

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> >>>>> So many tens of CDs per gram of rice?

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> >>>>>>>> versus
> >>>>>>>> *no* CDs for a 100 gram serving of 100% grass-fed beef. *You can do the
> >>>>>>>> comparison.

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> >>>>>>> No I can't, I have no ranges of numbers on the basis of which to make
> >>>>>>> the comparison.

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> >>>>>> You *know* that plausibly, the steer causes no CDs, and the vegetable
> >>>>>> products cause many.

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> >>>>> "Many" doesn't mean anything. Specify a number range.

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> >>>> All you need to know is that it exceeds the expected value of CDs for a
> >>>> nutritionally equivalent amount of grass-fed beef or wild-caught fish.

>
> >>> And how exactly do I know that?

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> >> Cut it out, woopee. *Just cut the shit, now.

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> > It would appear that you do not wish to answer my question.

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> It's an insincere and time-wasting question.


So you appear to believe.