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Wm James
 
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Default Starbucks Obstructing First Union Vote

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:33:20 GMT, "Michael Legel" >
wrote:

>
>"Wm James" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:51:41 GMT, "Michael Legel" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >

>> In a free society, no one is forced to trade with someone if they
>> don't like the terms. If your employer doesn't want to buy your labor
>> anymore, you have no more right to demand that he does than the cable
>> company has to demand that you keep buying what they are selling. If
>> he was paying $20 an hour for labor last week, and for whatever reason
>> he sees fit, he decides he's no longing willing to pay more then $10,
>> he still has to pay you the previous price for work you performed
>> under that agreement, but he's no more obligated to force you to
>> continue the previous arrangement than you are. You can stop selling
>> your labor to him anytime you please, and he can stop buying it
>> anytime he pleases. ANYONE bying anything has the right to decide
>> what they are willing to pay. ANYONE trading has the right to decide
>> how much they are willing to trade and for what.
>>

>
>I had assumed you were living in the U.S. My mistake. The U.S., where I
>live, is not "a free society". There are numerous laws which prevent an
>employer from going outside a union contract to fire an employee. My employer
>is not "free" to fire anyone on a whim ... it is not an "open market" ... both
>sides have agreed to abide by a contract under law which clearly states how
>and why people are hired and fired.


I am in the US. Well... Mississippi if that's close enough.

Contracts are another matter. Of course if you agree to the terms,
then you are obligated. Mut the employer shouldn't be compelled by
law to negotiate with the union or sign any contract. In the US they
are, which is clearly a violation of the business owner's
constitutional rights even though it continues. If you sign a
contract under duress, extortion, etc, is that binding? No, it isn't.
But we will have to wait for a decent court to fix that.

>> >Setting aside all your "open market" gibberish aside ...

>>
>> Rights are gibberish, huh? No wonder you need a union.

>
>Again, in the U.S. there is no such thing as a "right" to an "open market".
>Almost everything we do is regulated by law with licenses and permits required
>to do business under specific terms. There is no such "right" in my country.
>Where do you live?


I live in the US where propert rights exist. You are free to trade or
not to trade. You don't lose your rights when you decide to trade
money for labor. But you would be correct to say that the rights of
business owners are regularly infringed upon with the consent of the
courts who have had little regard for the constitution since FDR
stacked the USSC with socialists.

>> >let's set something
>> >straight. Simply because you have no moral principle other than dollar

>value
>> >don't impugn that restriction on the rest of society. I won't buy ANYTHING
>> >from Wal-mart, in fact I wouldn't take the time to go pick up something

>they
>> >were giving away. There are some costs in life beside the dollar cost and

>I
>> >will not support that anti-American company and many others. Yes, it does
>> >cost me more money at times and some times we do without altogether, but

>it's
>> >the only way we can eventually rid ourselves of the leeches.
>> >

>>
>> No problem. You aren'y obligated to buy from them. No one is
>> obligated to buy from you either. Live with it.

>
>I do "live with it" quite nicely. Why shouldn't I?


You said you couldn't have kept your job or gotten a raise without the
union. Why is that? Is your labor worth less than you are getting?
Is your employer only paying you more to avoid vandalism or other
attacks from thugs? I'd be ashamed to say that. I'd hate to think
I couldn't get someone to buy my labor without them facing threats.
Everyone I work for pays me because they feel they are getting what
they want for the price. I have worked in unionized shops, and
invariably, those who weren't willing to give the company their
money's worth tried to get me to join the union with the same
arguments claiming I needed the union. But they couldn't tell me why.
The union couldn't get me anything that I couldn't get for myself.
Even the flat tires they gave me for refusing to join would have been
trivial enough for me to accomplish on my own. Fortunately, the
idiots didn't know I keep a compressor in the vehicle so it only
wasted a couple of minutes. But why would I need to associate with
cowards, thugs, extortionists, and lazy mealy mouthed bums for
handouts when my labor has enough value to negotiate on my own behalf?

I'm not afraid of a company treating me poorly or not paying me
enough. If I don't like the pay of the conditions, I quit and sell my
labor elsewhere. Problem solved. The employer is the customer of the
employee. Like anyone else, if you give bad service, you shouldn't
expect the customer to keep shopping with you. If the customer doesn't
pay the bill, you stop giving them service. It's that simple.

William R. James