On 5/23/2010 11:53 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On May 19, 6:25 am, "Fred C. >
> wrote:
>> On 5/17/2010 1:51 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>> On May 17, 6:50 am, "Fred C. >
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 5/15/2010 6:21 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>>>> On May 16, 3:40 am, "Fred C. >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/15/2010 1:26 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> On May 15, 11:59 am, "Fred C. >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2010 3:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 8:23 am, "Fred C. >
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2010 3:14 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 6:26 am, "Fred C. >
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2010 1:16 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 6:15 am, "Fred C. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/14/2010 1:06 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 15, 5:40 am, "Fred C. >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The "vegan" pseudo-argument on "inefficiency" is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the resources used to produce a given amount of meat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could produce a much greater amount of vegetable food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for direct human consumption, due to the loss of energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that results from feeding grain and other feeds to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> livestock.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to examine the efficiency of some process,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there must be agreement on what the end product is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whose efficiency of production you are examining. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're looking at the production of consumer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronics, for example, then the output is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> televisions, stereo receivers, DVD players, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rather obviously, you need to get specific. No
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sensible person is going to suggest that we ought to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discontinue the production of television sets, because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they require more resources to produce (which they do),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and produce more DVD players instead. (For the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cave-dwellers, an extremely high quality DVD player may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be bought for under US$100, while a comparable quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> television set is going to cost several hundred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars. $500 for a DVD player is astronomical - I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not even sure there are any that expensive - while you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can easily pay $3000 or more for a large plasma TV
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> monitor, which will require a separate TV receiver.)
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the "vegans" doing with their misuse of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "inefficiency"? They're clearly saying that the end
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> product whose efficiency of production we want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consider is "food", i.e., undifferentiated food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calories. Just as clearly, they are wrong. Humans
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't consider all foods equal, and hence equally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substitutable. As in debunking so much of "veganism",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we can see this easily - laughably easily - by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restricting our view to a strictly vegetarian diet,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without introducing meat into the discussion at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If "vegans" REALLY were interested in food production
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> efficiency, they would be advocating the production of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only a very small number of vegetable crops, as it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obvious that some crops are more efficient to produce -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use less resources per nutritional unit of output -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than others.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But how do "vegans" actually behave? Why, they buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some fruits and vegetables that are resource-efficient,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and they buy some fruits and vegetables that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relatively resource-INefficient. You know this by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking at retail prices: higher priced goods ARE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher priced because they use more resources to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> produce. If "vegans" REALLY were interested in food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> production efficiency, they would only be buying the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely cheapest fruit or vegetable for any given
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nutritional requirement. This would necessarily mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there would be ONLY one kind of leafy green vegetable,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one kind of grain, one variety of fruit, and so on.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If "vegans" were to extend this misuse of "efficiency"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into other consumer goods, say clothing, then there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be only one kind of shoe produced (and thus only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one brand). The same would hold for every conceivable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> garment. A button-front shirt with collars costs more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to produce - uses more resources - than does a T-shirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so everyone "ought" to wear only T-shirts, if we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to focus on the efficiency of shirt production.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't "need" any button front shirts, just as you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't "need" meat. But look in any "vegan's" wardrobe,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you'll see a variety of different kinds of clothing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (all natural fiber, of course.) "vegans" aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advocating that only the most "efficient" clothing be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> produced, as their own behavior clearly indicates.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The correct way to analyze efficiency of production is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to focus as narrowly as possible on the end product,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then see if that product can be produced using fewer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resources. It is important to note that the consumer's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view of products as distinct things is crucial. A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> radio can be produced far more "efficiently", in terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of resource use, than a television; but consumers don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view radios and televisions as generic entertainment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The critical mistake, the UNBELIEVABLY stupid mistake,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that "vegans" who misconceive of "inefficiency" are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making, is to see "food" as some undifferentiated lump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of calories and other nutritional requirements. Once
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one realizes that this is not how ANYONE, including the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "vegans" themselves, views food, then the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "inefficiency" argument against using resources for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meat production falls to the ground.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope this helps.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What the efficiency argument actually says, on any reasonably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligent reading, is that by going vegan you can have a diet which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is just as tasty and nutritious with a much smaller environmental
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> footprint.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not what it's saying at all, as we already know.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How do you know?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I already explained it to you several times over the last couple of
>>>>>>>>>>>> years. The issue is *not* about environmental footprint, and you know
>>>>>>>>>>>> it. It's about a misconceived and ignorant belief regarding resource
>>>>>>>>>>>> allocation.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The issue is not about environmental footprint *for whom*?
>>
>>>>>>>>>> The issue is not about environmental footprint at all.
>>
>>>>>>>>> An argument can be made for going vegan based on environmental
>>>>>>>>> footprint, right?
>>
>>>>>>>> No, because you don't make the same commitment to minimize your
>>>>>>>> footprint in all other aspects of your life, *and* because that's not
>>>>>>>> why you're "going vegan", *and* because you'd "go vegan" *EVEN IF* it
>>>>>>>> had a higher environmental footprint than omnivory.
>>
>>>>>>> This isn't really about me personally. There are various
>>>>>>> considerations that might motivate someone to go vegan. The fact that
>>>>>>> it significantly reduces your environmental footprint is one of them.
>>>>>>> Someone might be rationally motivated to go vegan on those grounds.
>>
>>>>>>> The environmental considerations are not the main consideration for
>>>>>>> me, no, but they are a significant consideration, and I do make some
>>>>>>> effort to reduce my environmental footprint in other aspects of my
>>>>>>> life as well. But that is irrelevant.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you claim that *no-one* who talks about the "inefficiency" of meat
>>>>>>>>>>> production has this environmental argument in mind? That seems like a
>>>>>>>>>>> pretty extraordinary claim to me.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> I mean that everyone who has blabbered about it here is not talking
>>>>>>>>>> about the environment.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you. It is helpful when you clarify for me whom you wish to
>>>>>>>>> address, obviously.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Who has talked about it here?
>>
>>>>>>>> Your good pal, Lesley R. Simon, the foot-rubbing whore of Aughalustia,
>>>>>>>> Ballaghaderreen, County Roscommon, Ireland. Many others whose names
>>>>>>>> escape me. One was a ****wit named 'sam', 03 Mar 2008. Another ****wit
>>>>>>>> named 'pinboard' on the same date.
>>
>>>>>>> Well, those people aren't here at the moment,
>>
>>>> They are typical.
>>
>>>>>>>> It is the standard position in aaev.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> They're *all* talking about some kind of
>>>>>>>>>> nonsensical absolute inefficiency. The overwhelming majority have also
>>>>>>>>>> repeatedly maintained that the land currently in use for livestock
>>>>>>>>>> fodder continue to be used for agriculture, but that it be used to grow
>>>>>>>>>> food for "starving people" around the world.
>>
>>>>>>>>> You wouldn't be able to use all the land for that purpose.
>>
>>>>>>>> Irrelevant.
>>
>>>>>>> It is highly relevant
>>
>>>>>> It is irrelevant. The people advancing the bogus "efficiency" argument
>>>>>> are doing so not because they think the land shouldn't be used for
>>>>>> agriculture, but because they think it should be used for /different/
>>>>>> output than it is currently used to produce.
>>
>>>>> They think that a smaller amount of land should be used, obviously.
>>
>>>> That's not obvious at all, liar.
>>
>>> It takes a smaller amount of land to feed the human population on a
>>> plant-based diet than on an animal-based diet.
>>
>> As Dutch said: So what? The issue is not "minimizing" environmental
>> degradation - it's optimizing it, i.e., ensuring that the benefit from
>> using some resource in a manner that causes environmental degradation is
>> of greater value than the cost of the degradation. Because the crops
>> grown as animal feed are heavily subsidized, that optimization almost
>> certainly doesn't happen - that is, the total cost of the goods
>> produced, including environmental degradation, is higher than the price
>> paid by people who consume the meat. But that may well be true for
>> certain human-consumed vegetable crops, too, yet you don't hear stupid
>> "vegans" shrieking about it.
>>
>
> They are correctly pointing out that changing to a vegan diet from a
> typical Western diet reduces the associated environmental cost.

That's not what they're "pointing out". What they think they're
"pointing out" is that calories are lost when feeding grain to
livestock; they think the grain - the *same* grain, in their ****witted
ignorance - should be consumed by humans.