On Dec 29, 2:45*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 27, 8:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Dutch wrote:
>
> >>> "Ha" > wrote
> >>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
> >>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
> >>>>> * * If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
> >>>>> * * I don't consume any animal products;
> >>>>> * * therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
> >>>> All vegans?
> >>>> rather a sweeping statement!
> >>> You can replace "All vegans" with "Vegans" (in general) and not lose the
> >>> validity of the message.
> >>> Are you implicitly agreeing with the message but claiming to be an
> >>> exception?
>
> >> I don't have any problem making the assertion "all vegans". *They do
> >> *all* begin by believing that being "vegan" equates to living a
> >> "cruelty-free" or "death-free" lifestyle.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > False. I have never believed that.
>
> You have.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well, whatever the truth of the matter is, I would certainly know. We
can agree on that much, yes?

On what exactly is your confidence based?

You often make a big deal of how vegans ought to back claims such as
"A widespread transition to a vegan diet would be effective at
reducing suffering" with careful research and evidence. Well, quite.
Well, similarly, statements such as "All vegans begin their transition
to veganism in the belief that a vegan lifestyle as typically does not
involve buying *any* products whose production caused nonhuman
suffering and death" or "Rupert began his transition to veganism by
believing this", ought to be based in *evidence*. You have made the
bare-fased *assertion*, as is your wont, without offering the
slightest reason for thinking that you could possibly have any
evidence.

You have shown us some websites which make the statement that a vegan
diet is "cruelty-free". Such statements certainly are frequently made
and it's not too hard to understand to understand why advocates of
veganism would want to make them. Whether most vegans believe the
statement to be literally true in the sense *you* have in mind, or
*began* their transition to veganism by believing this, is a moot
point. You just haven't got the kind of evidence that would justify
you in saying this. As a big fan of the scientific method you ought to
appreciate this point.

Never in my life have I believed that the typical vegan lifestyle does
not involving buying any products whose production contributes to the
suffering and premature death of sentient nonhumans. I was well aware
that that was not the case in adolescence, before I seriously
contemplated giving up meat, and frequently discussed the point with
my friends. I would certainly be aware of the truth of that matter one
way or the other. I believe you once remarked that I had no reason to
disbelieve Dutch about some testimony that he gave, well, you have no
rational grounds whatsoever for disbelieving this testimony.