Rick>
> I don't know that he used any tatic at all.

He did, I pointed it out, and now he has done it again!

> I do know however that *you* used a site that only wanted rubes to buy
> books.

No, if you read into it a little you will see that the mother there has 4
kids all vegan (I think they use honey), but they use no supplements. I have
heard other reports of 2nd and 3rd generation life vegans who don't touch
supplements - I suspect they grow their own produce in their own nightsoil.

> But not on a 'natural' diet. There is nothing natural about suppliments.

Supplements are not essential. B12 may be obtained from faeces or dirt, but
we choose not to eat that - animal products are not the only source of B12.

> What's been agreed on by experts is that a vegan cannot get his b12
> naturally for plant material. Unless of course those foods have been
> unnaturally fortified.

Animals don't make B12, it is synthesised only by bacteria. These live
inside the animals guts.

> What the proof is that the longest living groups of people in the world
are
> not vegan.

There are no mortality studies on vegans so nothing to compare with. The
Okinawans have the greatest average longevity I believe, but meat is only a
small part of their diet. Populations that eat large amounts of animal
products don't have the greatest longevity. However, longevity is not an
indicator of quality of life. It is however, not a specific aim of vegans to
live longer, rather to reduce animal exploitation and suffering. In fact
dying sooner would probably help that greatly!

> Too bad you don't have any proof of the rest of vegan claims like 'saving'
> more animals.

I'm not sure vegans claim to save more animals, just to reduce some of the
suffering inherent in farming and lifestock slaughter. The key ethic for
veganism is actually non-exploitation - veganism is basically about animal
liberation, not how many animals are killed. Modern meat production is
inherently toxic and destructive, so I would imagine worse than veganism in
terms of total animals killed. Eating some bugs out the yard or bagging a
rabbit would save more lives than eating commerical meat I guess, and
probably more than eating a commercial vegan diet. But if you grew all your
own plant foods, then I think that would save the most animal lives.

John C