On Tue, 11 May 2004 09:23:35 -0700, "Dutch" > wrote:

>"Rubystars" > wrote in message m...
>> "ipse dixit" > wrote in message ...
>> >
>> > Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan desperately
>> > wants the reader to forget about (below).
>> >
>> > [start Mmhsb]
>> > > natural predators & a natural life is cruel?
>> > [usual suspect]
>> > Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel sometime.
>> > usual suspect http://tinyurl.com/2c9ac
>> >
>> > and
>> >
>> > "Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as they're
>> > stalked and hunted by large cats? Slaughterhouses may
>> > be messy, but they're not cruel."
>> > Usual Suspect http://tinyurl.com/yu6eq
>> >
>> > and
>> >
>> > "Suffering results for all animals whether they're
>> > eaten by humans or other animals. Indeed, many
>> > other predators are less humane than humans."
>> > usual suspect http://tinyurl.com/2ba7f
>> >
>> > It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect" believes
>> > natural predation is cruel while human predation isn't, but
>> > both he and Jonathan Ball are doing their level best between
>> > themselves to stop the readers on these animal related
>> > groups getting to read them.
>> >
>> > They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup
>> > titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
>> > anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?
>>
>> I agree that when natural predation happens, the animal isn't being
>> consciously cruel, but the animal who is killed does suffer, and that fact
>> can't be diminished. There's no moral significance to this because the
>> predator isnt making any kind of "decision" to do this, just following
>> instincts.
>>
>> Human actions have moral significance because we can choose
>> what to do. With that said, the fact that we provide slaughter
>> that is often more humane than
>> a death by predation in the wild would be, is a significant point to be
>> made. After all, humans could attack a cow with spears or we could use
>> humane slaughter methods including stunning.
>
>You've got it exactly right. Cruel also means simply causing pain and
>suffering, based on that definition, nature is arguably more cruel than
>captivity.

PERFECT! Thanks for offering your stupidity to this, Dutch.