"exploratory" > wrote in message
m...
> usual suspect > wrote in message news:<mKAib.37091$
>
> > > first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases
demand
> > > for meat.
> >
> > No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in
the
> > developed nations of the world, and their dietary habits have
negligible
> > influence on the lives of farm animals.
>
> Then this is EXACTLY the reason we need FAR MORE vegans --
> so they WILL have a bigger impact on the lives of farm animals.
> Each vegan is STILL saving the life of a dozen cows, a few hundred
> chickens, and tens of pigs in their lifetime by being vegan than
> eating meat.

I'm not interested in "saving cows". Provided they get reasonably well
treated during their lives I am quite content to see them get bred and
slaughtered so I can eat the occasional burger. If you thinks it's so
all-fired important, YOU do it. Stop pushing your ideas on me.

> Secondly, if vegans or vegetarians constitute such a small minority,
> then you have absolutely NOTHING to complain about.

Veganism is the stillborn stepchild of the Animal Rights movement, who
even in small numbers are famous for doing plenty of damage to people's
lives.

> > chosen to play an either-or game rather than support humane ranching
> > does nothing to help the plight of any animal.
>
> You are the one who is a fundamentalist anti-vegan religious fanatic
> who absolutely wants the whole world to exclude the third option
> of not eating the animals in the first place.

Nobody CARES what you ****ing eat, pillock!

> > No shit, Sherlock. It is a radical political act.
>
> No, Gary had it right. Veganism is just an matter of eating.

Then why are you here trying to convert me?

> Unlike you in the pro-meat religion, vegans happen to take into
> account
> the consequences of ALL their buying habits. So, they may consider
> things which have nothing to do with veganism
> (e.g. animals in entertainment).

I realize that, as I said, veganism is the stillborn stepchild of the
Animal Rights movement.

> > Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization.
>
> Lies and bullshit, from someone who has never seen the real world.
>
> > This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are
free
> > to support animal welfare programs and agencies --
>
> Hypocritical bullshit. If you don't happen to support the work or
> philosophy of a particular charitable organization, like PETA,
> you call their philosophy a "way of life" or "a religion".

You didn't even read what he said.

> Hunting and those in the slaughterhouse business are the ones who
> are sheltered in their overly protected and unseen world by ultra-
> conservative politicians. They, like Frank Purdue, make slaughtering
> animals their entire life's work, never thinking of other
> possibilities for a REAL job.

How dare you, you arrogant twerp?

> > Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and
everything to
> > do with an anti-capitalist political philosophy which has been
rejected
> > in nearly every nation where it's been tried.
>
> More insane bullshit lies. There is no more anti-capitalism in
> animal rights philosophy than in any other philosophy. Millions of
> Chinese and Soviet Red Army Communists could not care less about
> brutally murdering and torturing billions of animals for food.
> If the pro-meat fanatics were so "pro-capitalist", then would
> come out STRONGLY in favor of legalizing ALL drugs and ALL
> pornography.
> Those are businesses which don't hurt anybody --- nobody FORCES
> you to smoke pot or look at porn -- and which have been unfairly
> crippled by anti-drug and anti-porn zealots.
> But, naturally, pro-meat fanatics will not do that, it does not
> directly benefit THEM. Like all religious fanatics, anti-vegetarian
> cultists are concerned with general ideals like "capitalism"
> and "freedom" being applied ONLY in favor of THEIR business.

And you would deny me the right to eat meat. That's totalitarianism.

> Anti-veganism and anti-animal rights religions have absolutely NOTHING
> to do with human rights. They can say they are for human rights the
> same way Joseph Stalin was for his human right to murder millions of
> Russians or the Spanish Inquisition was for their human rights to
> torture non-Christians. Needlessly torturing animals
> is the only "human right" the anti-vegans care about.

Who appointed you to decide for *me* what is "needed" and what is not?
Everything single thing you consume carries a toll of animal death. Do I
tell you that you have eaten too much rice, or apples from an orchard
that uses too much poison? No, those are life choices that you make for
yourself, without interference. Yet you have decided that one life
choice of yours ought to be imposed on me.

> The anti-animal fanatics whine and complain about being forced not
> to eat meat. Yet they FORCE BILLIONS of animals to be born, kept in
> crates their whole lives,

Bullshit, livestock are not "kept in crates their whole lives".

tortured and then murdered
> illegally because these cults do not obey even the most
> lax animal-slaughter laws.

If you can't even come close to the truth how do expect anyone to accept
what you're saying?

> They show their true anti-human colors when they force only THEIR
> opinions to be heard in public schools, on tv, on radio, in
> newspapers.

I hear plenty of AR stories in the media. You're media darlings aamof.

> The pro-meat-industry cults violently stop pro-vegetarian groups from
> airing THEIR points of view, from promoting vegetarian diets in
> schools,
> while forcing THEIR advertisements and THEIR products everywhere.

Companies pay for advertising, and they don't tell people to stop eating
vegetables.

> > Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better
> > than animals with no economic value. You ignore this point when
shocking
> > yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets, but visit a
farm
> > for yourself and see how animals are treated.
>
> This statement shows how deeply entrenched the stupidity and lack
> of brains the anti-animal rights cult in our country is. They could
> take a trip to China and claim that every single Chinaman is happy
> because they see nobody in prison or on in a slave camp or being
> executed.

When's the last time you visited a farm? Did you see animals in crates,
being tortured?

> So then why do slaughterhouses and meat-packing plants violently
> and illegally stop PETA and any other animal-rights groups from
> videotaping
> and recording the truth about all your alleged humane conditions?

Because they know that PeTA will lie and distort the truth to advance
their own agenda, which is the abolition of meat.

> Perhaps a few have, but for your argument to make even a BIT of sense,
> ALL of them would have to.

Rubbish.

> > Sick animals don't gain weight,
>
> Care to prove your wild accusation that if the meat-industry were
> shut down, how sick animals would be born in the first place?

What?

> > Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like
> > yourself, are not kept in crates in the US. "The vast majority of
> > animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to move.
> > Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it
>
>
> YOU ADMITTED IT!! YOU ADMITTED that confinement occurs!
> Of course, you added the lie that it is "the exception".

It's not a lie. The lie is that it's the norm, it isn't.

> You and the entire pro-meat cult religion are ENTIRELY discredited.
> Democracy in this country is founded on TRUTH, and your religion
> does EVERYthing to hide the truth about this holocaust.

You don't care about the truth, you care about stories that support your
rabid prejudices.

> > Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to
> > ranching/farming to support this?
>
> Do you have any information NOT from ranchers or the meat-industry
> or those in government with ties to the meat industry to deny the
> hormones
>
> > Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of
Peta
> > or other activist groups? If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do
you
> > promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?
>
> You should get down on your hands and needs and kiss PETA on the ass
> for their efforts to stop ALL unnecessary breeding of bulls and
> domestic pets.

There you go again, telling ME what is necessary. Where do you get off
anyway?

> Naturally, your ignorance is astounding.
> Neutering dogs and cats who are homeless is appropriate to prevent
> millions MORE dogs and cats from either freezing to death, starving
> to death, or dying lonely in a gas chamber in a pound.
> In contrast, PETA is NOT going to go into a factory farm to castrate
> a bull to prevent future cows from being born. They are going to do
> what the government, weak-willed politicians, the FBI,
> and pro-meat fanatics like you are too cowardly to do: SHUT DOWN
> THE FACTORY FARM!
>
> > Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family,
and
> > I've slaughtered more than my share of steers. It was neither
inhumane
> > nor painful for any animal.
>
> Yeah, yeah. And I have been a vegetarian for 20 years and so is my
> family,
> all for animal rights. And I know for a fact that the trolls I have
> persuaded to go vegetarian have suffered absolutely nothing either.
> Don't lie and preach to me that shutting you and your ranching family
> down causes you "hardship" or crap like that. It is GOOD for you.

Who appointed you to dictate to others what's good for them? What are
your credentials to do this?

> It makes you THINK and TRY OTHER THINGS in life. It is INFINITELY
> more HUMANE to all the cultists in the pro-meat religion to shut them
> all down and force them in prison for life than ANYthing they have
> EVER done to the animals they needlessly raised for food.

What about the needless consumption vegans engage in? What about the
extra helpings, the gross use of power and autos? Who is going to stop
THAT needless consumption and it's inherent animal suffering? Should I?

> > Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not.
>
> Another lie.

Prove it, fathead.

Put the MOST in front of "confined" and you will be
> closer to the truth. Even so, you STILL admit that SOME are confined.

So what? I spend most of my time confined myself.

> That is QUITE a bit different from the meat religion's earlier mantra
> that NOT dairy cattle are confined.

You've got nothing but mindless ranting and hate-filled dogma.

> > How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside
the
> > "huge metal building"?
>
> Good. Then let us in.

Let who in? Fanatical troublemakers? Why?

> > Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a
toll on
> > animals -- a heavy toll in death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh
> > point is correct.
>
> It would take LESS of a toll if YOU and your pro-ranching cult family
> (guess you learned from Charles Manson) spent your lives and careers
> looking for ways of growing food with MINIMAL suffering and pain,
> looking for biotechnological innovations in modifying plant food
> to yield more protein, etc.

YOU do it, stop ****ing dictating how other's must live, HITLER!

> Fact: You will not innovate unless you are FORCED to.

Try it punk.

> > > It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to
justify
> > > your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely
false.
>
> That he is, Gary!
>
> > Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it
harder
> > for some people to eat what they want.
>
> Waaah!! Waaah!! BOO- HOO!! And you stop telling PETA and
> pro-vegetarian
> groups what THEY can do with THEIR time and money! I think every
> nurse and doctor should refuse to assist a pro-meat cultist every time
> they get a heart attack or have an accident. If you are so
> "libertarian",
> then you would leave alone those who wish to have no association with
> your business.

You're a ****ed-up, stupid crank, if you had half a brain you'd be
dangerous.